CM Editor Capabilities - Questions for Steve

[Mad_Merse]

Apologies if this has been answered before, but I'm not really sure how I'd search for these questions. Most of these editor questions deal with providing some randomization of user designed scenarios.

Does the CM editor give you the ability to set what I'd call triggered reinforcements, i.e., reinforcements that occur only after some event? An example might be a mechanized force that arrives 20 minutes after the attack of a specific friendly unit or location designated by the scenario designer.

Does the CM editor allow you to assign an initial default path or movement state to reinforcements. Example: the reinforcement moves at running/move speed until it reaches a specific waypoint that is pre-scripted by the scenario designer. Until the unit is fired upon, spots an enemy unit or reaches the waypoint, it moves along the path without the tactical AI kicking in to alter its movement.

If the scenario editor does allow pre-scripted paths, can the scenario designer assign probabilities of occurance to them? An example: infantry platoon A is scheduled to show up on turn 8, 25% chance of following path X, 45% chance of following path Y, and 30% chance of following path Z.

Does the scenario editor allow the designer to assign probabilities of appearance for reinforcements or air strikes?

Does the scenario editor allow for random unit selection for reinforcements? Example: 2 German tanks are scheduled to appear on turn 6, .5 probability of PZIV-H with schuertzen, .5 probability of PZIV-H without schuertzen.

That's probably enough questions for now. If the answer is no to all of them, that's OK with me.

If so, might any of these features make it into CM2? Most of these editor features would really come into their own on the East Front when the Germans depended a lot on trip wire defenses coupled with a mobile "fire brigade" of forces to deal with Soviet penetrations or attacks by partisans on supply lines.

Whew! (See what happens when we're not playing CM, Steve - idle hands and all that )

Bob Mercer

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"Next slide, next slide, you swine! Do you want to brief forever?" Apologies to Frederick the Great

[Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mad_Merse:

Does the CM editor give you the ability to set what I'd call triggered reinforcements, i.e., reinforcements that occur only after some event? An example might be a mechanized force that arrives 20 minutes after the attack of a specific friendly unit or location designated by the scenario designer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as I know...No. Reinforcements arrive around a specific turn with a certain percentage based on how the battle is going actually. Kinda like, if the battle is going extremely well, then the reinforcements might arrive on the early-most turn to "push" the attack. If the battle is going poorly, you will get the reinforcements later, if not at all. 'Cause why reinforce a lost cause? However this is still based on a percentage of probability. ex. If the reinforcements are scheduled to arrive by turn 10, but the battle is going poorly, they may not arrive until turn 15 with the probability going up after each turn. It's like a die roll. The higher the percentage, the more likely they will arrive, but I think there is a modifier in there based on how the battle is going. ex. Battle is going bad, -30% modifier. Battle is going good +30% modifier.

I received my German reinforcements on Turn 9 in CE the other day, 'cause I was kickin' some serious booty. That's the earliest I've ever seen'em in CE.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Does the CM editor allow you to assign an initial default path or movement state to reinforcements. Example: the reinforcement moves at running/move speed until it reaches a specific waypoint that is pre-scripted by the scenario designer. Until the unit is fired upon, spots an enemy unit or reaches the waypoint, it moves along the path without the tactical AI kicking in to alter its movement.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Simple answer no. You can't pre-assign anything that isn't on the board. Although don't quote me on this, but as far as I know, it doesn't allow this sort of scripting.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Does the scenario editor allow the designer to assign probabilities of appearance for reinforcements or air strikes?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, answered in depth from the first question.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Does the scenario editor allow for random unit selection for reinforcements? Example: 2 German tanks are scheduled to appear on turn 6, .5 probability of PZIV-H with schuertzen, .5 probability of PZIV-H without schuertzen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that I'm not sure of. I don't think so, but it could. Just have to wait and see.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If so, might any of these features make it into CM2? Most of these editor features would really come into their own on the East Front when the Germans depended a lot on trip wire defenses coupled with a mobile "fire brigade" of forces to deal with Soviet penetrations or attacks by partisans on supply lines.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually your questions were pretty good. Although I'm not a Tester, from what I understand, there has been no mention of the initial movement or trip wire defense thing you've mentioned.

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"The greatest risk...is not taking one."

[This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 06-08-2000).]

[Mikester]

I believe Maximus is correct on all accounts. Except for the fact that I'm pretty certain that the status of the battle has absolutely nothing to do with when the reinforcements come in.

There are basically two modes that can be set by the scenario designer to control this. First, he can say that they come in on turn X regardless of anything else that might have happened.

Second, is that he can say starting on turn X there is a Y% chance that the reinforcements will show up. Orginally this percentage was going to be fixed. Say the scenario designer set it to 20%. Howver, I believe I recently read someone in the "know" state that the percentage will actually increase slightly each turn, until the reinforcements arrive. I don't know if this something like 5% increments each turn, or what though. So next turn after the intial 20% chance if they didn't show up the new probability of showing up becomes 25%, etc.

Mikester out.

[Guest Madmatt]

Edited becuase pretty much EVERYTHING I said was wrong! Just keep reading to get the real skinny!

Madmatt

[This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 06-08-2000).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Hi Bob,

There is no scripting of any sort. I'm not sure how scripting as you described would add value to the game (no ofense). You have to remember that the scale of a CM battle is very small and that some of what you mentioned really isn't a realistic issue for the scope of a CM battle. For example, at CM's scale reinforcements would either be available or not. There would be no variability from a realistic standpoint, and from a game balancing standpoint it isn't a good idea to have wildcards for what actually makes it into the battle. And since the length of time of a battle is short the "tripwires" you spoke of would either be tripped just before the battle began or just after it started. If you really want to have the reinforcements be highly unlikely to come into the battle before it is over, you can do this (see below).

Scripting the unit's initial paths/actions ties the hands of the AI for the first couple of turns, which goes against what the AI was programmed to be (flexible). When units pop out onto the map they should be allowed to go wherever and however circumstances dictate that they should.

All reinforcements have two variables that are completely controlled by the scenario designer. One is the first possible turn the reinforcements can come in, the second determines the % chance they will arrive on that and subsequent turns. Mike, it is not true that the % chance increases in subsequent turns. 50% chance means that each turn there is a 1 in 2 chance of the reinforcements popping up, never more than that.

There are five "slots" for reinforcements, so you can put various units in various slots and adjust the chance of them popping up into the game by "slot". Airsupport is like any other unit in terms of coming in as a reinforcement, except there is a chance that the plane won't find the battle and therefore never come into play.

During Operations reinforcements come at the beginning of the next battle or not at all. The chance of the reinforcements arrival depends on similar variables as a Battle (i.e. first battle, chance of entry) or depending on how well the Operation is going.

Well... I think that about covers it Keep in mind that there are litterly more battles available to you than you could play in a hundred lifetimes. The Quick Battle feature, which makes battles on the fly, has more unique possibilities than can be calculated. Then of course there are all the user made scenarios that will be found all over the place. So more variability within a battle is not necessary because there are so many battles to play that you really shouldn't bother playing the same one more than perhaps twice. After about two times there is nothing we can do to make the scenario random enough to present a fresh challenge without totally redoing the thing, just like a Quick Battle.

Uhm... I think that about covers everything Pipe up if I left something out or missed an angle.

Steve

[Moon]

Actually, there is a modifier with regard to how well (or bad) the battle is going which you forgot, Madmatt! You can have a reserve pool for operations and it's release will depend on how well you're doing.

[Guest Madmatt]

DOH! Double WUSS SLAP from Steve and Moon!

I was just trying to help!

Umm, i did say that I *thought* thats how it was....

errrr....

[Mad_Merse]

Thanks, Steve for the quick response. I was thinking mostly of some of the actions on the Eastern Front where the Germans depended on relatively modest defense forces to defend their supply lines at selected fixed positions, but with a "quick response" force to respond if the fixed position was attacked by partisans or deep strike Soviet forces. I was hoping that as a scenario designer I might be able to interject some "uncertainty" on the part of the defender in that they do not know whether or not the "cavalry" will arrive on time.

Like I said before, I'm not hard over on the topic, just curious. The one thing I learned in force-on-force exercises in the Army is that Clauswitz was right about "friction" in combat. Murphy rules a lot of the time. Part of the reason I asked about scripting was to introduce some of the mistakes of combat where because of lack of solid intelligence, a commander entered the battle with an understanding of the situation that did not match the reality of the situation. My experience is that a commander often is force to make decisions not based on reality, but the perception of reality of his superior or subordinates.

Let me provide a concrete example. In 1978, I was leading a direct support battery of 155mm SP howitzers (M109A1) during a Reforger exercise. We were the Orange (attacking) forces. I was in direct support of the 2d Bde and following closely. I had managed to keep up with them because I had convinced an armored battalion to leave their AVLB's in position a little longer to allow my battery to cross a water obstacle that otherwise would have precluded us from providing artillery support (all the road/rail bridges were blown by the defenders). As we advanced with the lead armored Brigade which was attempting a deep strike against the defender's infrastructure, the Divison Artillery Commander (Brigade Commander) stopped my battery on the road and directed us to a new position. Although I argued against the orders because I knew we were in enemy territory and wanted to stay in contact with the armored battalion for security purposes, I was overruled. I advanced towards the new position rapidly in march column, tubes in travel lock (artillery needs to do so to preclude blowing the hydraulic seals on the elevation mechanisms). As you can guess, we were ambushed (hell, we drove into the middle of them) by an armored company (17 blue force M-60 tanks). Anyone want to guess the losses the umpire adjudicated for my battery? Yep, total annihilation because we were trying to get to point B from point A within a specified time limit in a very vulnerable march column because the commander believed there were no enemy forces in the vicinity. And by the time we detected them, it was too late to react.

Maybe these types of "tactical" surprises can be handled in other ways, such as the OPORD. I guess I'm asking for ideas on how to duplicate the effects of mistakes by higher headquarters/perception of the tactical situation. That's the intent behind the pre-scripted paths. Maybe I'm the only bozo who likes to be surprised by something that's not what's briefed, but I'd also like the AI to be able to be "surprised" as well.

V/R

Bob Mercer

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"Next slide, next slide, you swine! Do you want to brief forever?" Apologies to Frederick the Great

[Maximus]

Yeah, I knew there had to be some sort of a modifier as far as battle progression went. 'Cause like I said, I received my German reinforcements in Turn 9. I don't think I've ever seen them come in that early. Anyway, by that time I had already slaughtered over half of the American infantry and knocked out all 5 Shermans. There came a time where only the American reinforcement platoon was the only opposing force and by that time I had my infantry running up on their entry point.

But thanks Steve, you answered some questions that I wasn't sure about either concerning the reinforcements in the editor.

[THumpre]

Steve,

I am curious if/how a random game could be played as a PBEM? How would the unit selection work? both players would need the map, right? Or do I have this whole thing screwed up? Thanks in advance.

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No matter where you go, there you are.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Mad_Merse, yup... understood what you meant about the Eastern Front. It was, actually, the same on the Western Front. Never enough stuff to go around

The difference between a CM battle and a real world one is that the scenario designer KNOWS what the battle is going to be like, and therefore if that "trigger" would have been tripped. This is something that the German commander might not know, so there is no need to tell him, is there? The *ONLY* way that the German commander knows of reinforcements (short of peeking in the scenario file using the Editor) is by reading the Mission Briefing. You can tell him nothing, something ambiguous, or even outright lie. You can say, for example, "there is a platoon of PzIVs standing by to aid you" and in fact have none. Some might find this cruel, but the PzIVs might have been diverted, hung up by an air attack, or otherwise just didn't move forward for some reason.

You can also make the chance of the reinforcements appearing REALLY low. For example, a 5% chance on Turn 10 of 30 means there is a decent chance the reinforcements might never show up, or show up too late to be of any good.

In short, the tools for doing what you are talking about are in fact there. Just got to figure out how you want to craft it.

As for the preplotted paths, this runs contrary to everything about the game. While I understand what you are trying to simulate, it is doesn't fit in with the rest of the game. What I mean is that the player has "über" control over his forces, and that is by definition unrealistic. The initial path of reinforcements is trivial compared to the general nature of control being exercised on the battlefield itself. For example, units never get lost, yet this happened all the time on the battlefield. So basically what you are talking about won't make a dent in the über control issue, but will introduce a couple of negatives like robotic paths regardless of actual events and general inconsistency. So best to not touch something like that with a 10 foot pole

Oh, and the AI has no concept of "surprise", so therefore no matter what you toss at it the AI will not have that sort of behavior. However, the AI has no more knowledge of the battlefield than the Human, so it can make operational mistakes based on poor intel (like what happened to you and your battery).

THumper... sure, the Quick Battles work great via PBEM. One person sets up the basica parameters and then sends the file to the other player to select forces to purchase (if that is the option chosen). Then it is just like any other PBEM game from there on. Unlike many other games, no CM game type requires both people to have the same scenario file.

Steve

[Mad_Merse]

OK, I'm satisfied with your explanations in terms of the "uber" control vice control within the scenario design. It did bring to mind an additional question on the inter-relationships between the various AI.

Let's say I set up a scenario that could be played by either Germans or Ami's. If the Germans had an infantry anti-tank ambush along a major avenue of approach and concealed. If this avenue was connected to an extremely valuable victory point, would the American AI ever go "B*lls to the Wall" to take the victory location, or would the AI generally assess that those woods ahead look like a pretty good place for an ambush and take security measures? I guess what I'm really asking (for probably the hundredth time on the board) is how often the AI makes "dumb" mistakes. If it does, are the frequency they are made partially dependent on external factors (leaders, weather, etc.)?

I don't think I've asked this many questions on the same topic since I was a kid!

Thanks for your patience and willingness to answer questions, Steve. It really helps when I'm convincing some of my friends to buy CM.

Bob Mercer, Expert in Whatever (i.e. one who comes from more than 50 miles away with at least a three inch stack of briefing slides)

[RudeLover]

I'm a little confused. Some of the the above suggests that a player's success (or lack thereof) will affect the progress of reinforcements in some cases. Is this true in a Battle (single scenario), an Operation, both, or neither? And if so, am I more likely to get reinforcements if I'm getting hammered or if I'm doing well? Or is that a scenario/operation designer's decision.

Sorry if this has already been answered, but the above discussion seems to have contradicting information. (Maybe I'm just too thick to get it...)

[Mikester]

Rudelover,

I hope what I'm about to tell you is correct.

I think your progress / status in the game only affects the reinforcements in the campaign, not during a given portion (i.e. single battle) of it, or a stand alone single battle scenario.

In other words. The reinforcements that come in during a given battle of a campaign, or a stand alone single battle, follow the arrive at turn X at Y% percent probability of arriving on that turn and every turn thereafter rule.

While the "reinforcements" that arrive between battles in the campaign really represent higher level reserves that you may, or may not, get depending on how the overall campaign is going for you at that point in time.

Only thing I'm not sure of is whether there are also true reinforcements that can arrive between battles of the campaign in addition to these "reserve reinforcements". In other words one's that follow an X of arrive between battles 1 and 2 of this campaign and a Y of some given percentage (probably 100%, but not necessarily).

Hope this helps. Steve/others in the "know" please correct me if I'm wrong.

Mikester out.

[Guest smbutler]

I've got a ? re: editing OOBs:

If I want to, can I create a US squad with four or five squads (instead of three?) If so, what effects would this have on C&C and moral?

Also, can I make NCO's platoon leaders?

[Guest Big Time Software]

Hey, always glad to have someone thinking about this stuff and then asking questions. It is the best way to find out if changes need to be made in the future. Now some answers:

1. Yes, the AI can make mistakes. However, its general approach is to take the most tactically sound path and plan to take the objectives. It will not go "balls to the wall" because that would most often lead to total disaster. Since it is far too hard to program the logic to propperly assess when such a plan might have a chance of working, best to not have it in at all. Otherwise it is random, and random is not good in this case.

2. Mikester is mostly correct. The "comes in on x turn with y chance" is the only way it works for a stand alone battle. A slightly different thing happens for an individual battle within an operation. And that is they "come in on x battle with y chance". Note the difference here. One comes in somewhere between Turn 1 and the final turn, the other comes in at Setup or not at all.

Operations also have reserves that may or may not show up at the beginning of a battle depending on the status of the operation as a whole. Say there are 10 battles in an operation, you are attacking, it is battle 5, the enemy has more forces than you do and you are only 1/4 the way to the objective. If there are reserves available, you will probably get some What you get is assigned by the ops designer, as is the chance of getting them.

3. No, you can not have 4 or 5 squads commanded by a single Platoon HQ. 3 or less per Platoon HQ. There is also no concept of rank in game terms, so no you can't put a Sgt. in as a Company commander. The ranks are not editable even just for visual purposes. That would have been a lot more complicated to program and since it doesn't matter (game wise) we don't allow for this.

Steve

[Mikester]

Thanks for the clarifications Steve. I've been kinda wondering myself about the final details of how you guys decided this stuff is all going to work as well.

If I only had that darn manual, then all would become clear. Hopefully next week, or early the following week, that will be the case and many of our questions will be answered.

Mikester