Cherry Picking Tactics

[Pham911]

Lots of talk about cherry picking these days. I guess they're in season...

It all leads me to ponder something;

Can sound tactics overcome cherrypickers?

I mean, ideally different armor should be used slightly differently. A Puma isn't swapable for a King Tiger in punch, but it's got speed that the KT lacks which makes it a good flanking vehicle.

Look at it this way, if I don't use my bazookas, mortars, and infantry men interchangable, why should I use my armor that way? If I've got a choice between a Puma or a Tiger to use for pop up shots from behind a hill, I'd have to go with the Puma. It can leap forward, shoot once, then race back way before most other tanks can traverse, aim, and fire. You can repeat it endlessly with little risk(until the enemy repositions).A Tiger lumbers to the top and by the time his barrel clears the crest he's on buttoned with a dead TC.

I think most people buy based on caliber, with or without cherry picking(not everyone, just a lot of people), and don't look closely at speed(more mobile), horsepower(accelerates faster), or other non-lethal factors. So, if a cherry picker selects five King Tigers, he's stuck playing with a slow, cumbersome force that(hopefully) can be flanked repeatedly(once they turn to face you, you should be gone...) with your weak Shermans. There's no rule that says you have to engage his armor if it's stronger. You can run from it without fear if you check your LOS and eyeball the path from a 1 view to keep cover between you and them. If he uses his armor to play cat and mouse for the game, let him and concentrate on the infantry fighting(he won't have had much to spend on soldiers if he's picked the best and most armor he could, remember). If he engages your infantry with the tanks, flank him and hit him from the rear with yours. If he piecemeals his tanks to try to pin you down, allow him to catch you in close quarters, then hit him hard(since you do move your tanks in platoons, right?)and force the AI to reverse even if the cherry picker can't allow himself to back down. The AI will usually flee at the exclusion of firing from these 5 on 1 situations. A 37mm gun at close range can get lucky, and even if it doesn't, you're no worse for the wear.

My point is this, since you're not cherry picking you should have an adaptable force while the cherry picker does not. He's either attacking or defending and can't switch his positions, and he's unable to switch units to better locations quickly.

Even if you're playing with historic compositions it's adaptable. After all, the Armies didn't pick these combinations out of a hat. They did it for a reason; it made tactical sense.

Also, I think we all play this game because we enjoy the challenge and we find it fun. It's no less challenging to figure out a good way to remove 4 Jumbo Shermans with PzIv's and PSW's than it is to figure out how to take St. Lo from historical army composition and deployment. Don't sweat the cherry pickers so much unless you're trying to re-create an actual battle(in which case you should be playing with someone you know anyways).

So, I guess let me know what you think, engage his armor on your terms, and please, please people, don't lead with your tanks.

[Maj. Bosco]

bump

[Kingfish]

IMO, one of the best ways to prevent cherry picking is to have the computer randomly pick the weather and time of day.

If your opponent decides on 5 KTs, he might find himself playing in mud with no roads. If he likes to go heavy on the arty, he might find himself playing at night, or heavy fog.

A well balanced force will not always win you the game, but you will never lose because of it.

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Charlie don't surf!

[Bruno Weiss]

Well said Kingfish. Exactly how I do it. A "random" for time of day, and weather, results in an unknown for both parties, thus limiting the ability of one party to sway anything in their direction, but also allowing for a more of a tactical challenge and therefore fun for the whole family.

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"Wer zuerst schiesst hat mehr von Leben"

Moto-(3./JG11 "Graf")

Bruno "Stachel" Weiss

[Olduvai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pham911:

If I've got a choice between a Puma or a Tiger to use for pop up shots from behind a hill, I'd have to go with the Puma. It can leap forward, shoot once, then race back way before most other tanks can traverse, aim, and fire.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How does this work? Give a fire order while your afv is behind the hill, order it over the hill, then a pause command, and then order it back behind cover? Does this work? i'm an idiot for not trying. . .

[Croda]

Close, it's a hunt command up the hill, stopping so that the gun clears the crest of the hill and has LOS. In the same turn a reverse order is issued after the hunt. It works like this. The tank hunts up the hill. Because it will hunt, it will engage targets as soon as it has LOS. Then after the hunt order is completed, it will reverse back down into cover.

[Guest Scott Clinton]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>IMO, one of the best ways to prevent cherry picking is to have the computer randomly pick the weather and time of day.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree 100%.

And if we could have the QB randomely select a map TYPE the "Cherry Picking" problem would practically vanish. The only exceptions would be ahistorical use of units which is to be addressed by some form of 'rarity system in CM2 as well.

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[ScoutPL]

As far as effectiveness of cherry picking vs. strict TO&E selection goes... I think after four years of war on the eastern front the germans would have tweaked their TO&E to the max effectiveness. Granted they often used task forces made up of a hodgepodge of different units and types but they were very effective. If you can tolerate a non historical player then let them cherry pick. As everyone has pointed out, it comes down to skill, experience and knowledge rather then who has the prettiest metal beast.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Croda:

Close, it's a hunt command up the hill, stopping so that the gun clears the crest of the hill and has LOS. In the same turn a reverse order is issued after the hunt. It works like this. The tank hunts up the hill. Because it will hunt, it will engage targets as soon as it has LOS. Then after the hunt order is completed, it will reverse back down into cover.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Croda, my understanding of the Hunt command is that the unit given the command will engage the enemy until it's destroyed. Therefore, if the Puma spots a unit & begins firing on it, isn't there a chance it will be left exposed at the top of the hill if it hasn't managed to destroy the unit it has engaged?

I always thought you simply used the Move command while tageting an already known unit on the other side of the hill for the move then reverse commands to work & NOT leave your unit stuck on the top of the rise. But if your tactic of Hunt then Reverse works then I'll have to re-asses my use of the commands perhaps.

Regards

Jim R.

[Olduvai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Croda:

Close, it's a hunt command up the hill, stopping so that the gun clears the crest of the hill and has LOS. In the same turn a reverse order is issued after the hunt. It works like this. The tank hunts up the hill. Because it will hunt, it will engage targets as soon as it has LOS. Then after the hunt order is completed, it will reverse back down into cover.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the reply and clarification. Kanonier Reichmann asks a good question, too -- will the hunt command allow for just one shot or will the afv continue to engage any and all targets it sees until destroys? I understand that micromanagement of individual assets is not the real intent of CM, but I am interested to know if there is an effective way to do the pop and shoot.

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

Cherry Picking does not result in invincibility....

If I go against a Super Pershing kind of guy, I make sure iZ have plenty of puppchens or PAW's and it usually does the trick..