Artillery Bug?

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

If I target a building, and that building is turned to rubble during a fire mision, the FO now seems to cancel the fire mission. This is most likely tied to the tank area fire at buildings tweak(which is a great addition), but I'm not sure that was the intent.

I for one would like my FOs to keep hammering an area until I tell them otherwise.

[Guest Madmatt]

Hmmm, I will have to test this...

Madmatt

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[Guest tero]

Also, if the FO gets snuffed the ongoing firemission is cancelled.

[Jager 7]

If your FO gets snuffed the fire mission should be cancelled. Arty doesn't like to shoot where no one is watching, dangerous for the good guys.

Out here...

[DEF BUNGIS]

I think what tero is reffering to is the rounds that have already been fired by the guns.

They seem do disapear in thin air.

------------------

The counter-revolution,

people smilling through their tears.

Who can give them back their lives, and all those wasted years.

[Jager 7]

Def Bungis,

Wow, I haven't seen that yet....doesn't sound good if that is the case. The last rounds fired should impact and then no more. Hmm, will have to look at that one.

[Guest tero]

>If your FO gets snuffed the fire mission should be cancelled.

Just a point of logics: by whom ? What if it was just a broken phone wire or static on the radio waves, should the battery cease firing as a point of procedure whenever the FO goes off the air AFTER they have been given the "Fire for effect" command ? How can they know the FO is dead and not just hiding and not able to answer ?

>Arty doesn't like to shoot where no one is watching, dangerous for the good guys.

Not unless the FO is incompetent. And even then the FO calls the shots, litterally, not the guys at the battery looking at the map that has the friendly positions, precalculated target references and suspected enemy positions determined BEFORE the battle began. They are the to give support, NOT second quess the FO's firemissions.

It is OK to get the firemission cancelled when it is still in its ranging phase but once the FO goes "Fire for effect" they should just keep loading until they run out of shells or are given new coordinates.

[DEF BUNGIS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jager 7:

Def Bungis,

Wow, I haven't seen that yet....doesn't sound good if that is the case. The last rounds fired should impact and then no more. Hmm, will have to look at that one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to give false meaning here Jager 7.

I DO NOT KNOW if that really happens.

I was just reffering to the problem Scarlet was explaining.

I can only think that this may be the problem.

If an FO calls a fire mission and then get's whacked, the fire mission should cease after the last volley fired.

FO's must call a "repeat" command on the radio after each volley is fired.

If he doesn't, no more Arty.

------------------

The counter-revolution,

people smilling through their tears.

Who can give them back their lives, and all those wasted years.

[Pham911]

In actual WWII combat, how did artillery work? Was the FO in constant contact with the battery, saying into his radio "hit, hit, hit...hit, hit..." endlessly, or did he just call in the first shots, give them adjustments, then let the barrage fly?

It's a big difference for how CM should handle the death of a FO. If they're just calling in for corrections, then the battery would fire until spent because a dead FO can't yell "cease fire" into his radio. If they've got to be in constant contact, then let CM kill the mission on the FO is gone.

BTW, even if a dead FO means no more artillery, why can't a CO use his radio to at least relay the message to the battery that they should continue firing all avaliable rounds at the last plotted target?

[Jager 7]

From Tero:

> "Just a point of logics: by whom ? What if it was just a broken phone wire or static on the radio waves, should the battery cease firing as a point of procedure whenever the FO goes off the air AFTER they have been given the "Fire for effect" command ? How can they know the FO is dead and not just hiding and not able to answer ?"

No...if the battery is already in Fire For Effect they will continue to fire until they deliever what they told the FO they were going to fire...more about that later. If there is bad comm, or whatever and it is during the adjustment phase the battery WILL NOT fire.

>>Arty doesn't like to shoot where no one is watching, dangerous for the good guys.

"Not unless the FO is incompetent. And even then the FO calls the shots, litterally, not the guys at the battery looking at the map that has the friendly positions, precalculated target references and suspected enemy positions determined BEFORE the battle began. They are the to give support, NOT second quess the FO's firemissions."

The supporting artillery WILL cease firing adjustment rounds as soon as they lose comm with the FO. They will not needlessly endanger friendlies. Map plots of friendlies may be old...only the FO has a handle on where the friendlies in his zone are currently.

Now, if the battery is already in the Fire For Effect phase of the mission they will continue to fire. However, They will not continue to fire until all the rounds are expended etc. The battery, (specifically the Fire Direction Officer) allocates a number of volleys to the Fire Mission and advises the FO of this during the Message to Observer...after the initial Call for Fire has gone in to the battery and before adjustment begins.

I didn't say anything about the battery second guessing the FO. If he is hors de combat there will be no other Fire Missions until he is replaced by another FO or someone who assumes his role.

Def Bungis,

Technically the FO doesn't have to call a REPEAT after each volley. He will recieve the allocated Fire For Effect, ie, a battery of three rounds or ten rounds or whatever. After that is completed and he still needs more fire he can then REPEAT the FFE or return to one round adjustment, or simply end the mission.

Phram 911,

There are usually 3 FO teams per infantry battalion. The battery if it is in direct support of that battalion will not fire all of it's rounds in support of one FO. The FO tells the infantry company CO how many rounds he has available etc when he reports. This changes daily and in combat with American artillery in WWII there was probably a great deal of ammo available.

In tough situations I'm sure the CO or other people got on the radio if the FO was dead and continued the mission. There is no facility for this in CM.

There are two-man FO teams in CM so if the actual FO does get hit the radio man apparently takes over in CM. All in all I have to say that arty and FOs are handled quite nicely in CM and are probably about as realistic as we can expect at this point.

Hope that adds to the discussion.

Out here...

[DEF BUNGIS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jager 7:

Def Bungis,

Technically the FO doesn't have to call a REPEAT after each volley. He will recieve the allocated Fire For Effect, ie, a battery of three rounds or ten rounds or whatever. After that is completed and he still needs more fire he can then REPEAT the FFE or return to one round adjustment, or simply end the mission.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, so what is it.

Either he calls repeat, or not.

If he Does have to call a repeat mission somwhere during FFE, then gets killed, the FFE should eventually stop before all of the allocated ammo is expended This is how CM plays now.

If the FO does not have to call a repeat mission, then ALL of the allocated ammo should be fired after the spotting round. Unless he cancells the fire mission.

That means, if the FO gets killed, the FFE should not end. Right?

------------------

The counter-revolution,

people smilling through their tears.

Who can give them back their lives, and all those wasted years.

[Jager 7]

Def Bungis,

I see what you are saying. I was just explaining the real world stuff. In CM I take it that if the FO dies, his Fire Mission dies with him at the end of the turn. This would reflect that for game purposes he is giving the battery REPEAT after each volley.

Now, in CM's defense there is no way to know how many rounds are "allocated" for that fire mission. I mean, the game doesn't go into that detail.

A future patch might be nice to say - call for fire on a target and specify the number of rounds you want to expend on that target. (Arty Spotter has 100 rounds...sees enemy assembling in trees, targets them and designates 30 rounds in his FFE.) Then if you want more you can REPEAT the mission as many times as you like until the ammo runs dry.

That would be realistic and the death of the FO would at least guarantee the remaining rounds called for would arrive in the last target area and not end with the turn but with the end of the current fire mission.

It's not a bad idea...maybe BTS will see this..LOL.

Out here...

[DEF BUNGIS]

I kinda like how it is now.

So take of your FO's boy's!!

------------------

The counter-revolution,

people smilling through their tears.

Who can give them back their lives, and all those wasted years.

[Guest tero]

Taking care they are not snuffed will have to suffice for now. :-D

[This message has been edited by tero (edited 08-28-2000).]

[Jager 7]

I agree, the way it is now is no problem at all. The FOs of both sides are treated the same by the game so it's no big deal. Yes, you must take care of those FOs.

By the way, anyone notice how much smoke there ISN'T available in 1.05? I like that a lot better too.

Out here...

[tss]

Pham911 wrote:

In actual WWII combat, how did artillery work?

Others have already answered this but I'd like to elaborate a little.

In Finnish army, the doctrine was that the artillery should be used in short and accurate strikes that would saturate the target area. The basic fire mode was an "isku" (strike) against a 100x100 meter target by one artillery batallion (3 batteries, 12 guns). An "isku" lasted for a minute and the guns fired as many rounds as they could in that time. So, a full strike of a 75 mm batallion would land 120 shells in the target area in a minute (with first 12 shells landing in a space of couple of seconds). Heavier guns would fire less rounds. Guns of about 100 mm would fire 8 rounds, 120 mm 6 rounds, and 150 mm 4 rounds.

The artillery FO would either call simply a "strike target X" or if some other amount of ammo was necessary "fire 8 rounds at X" (with each gun). When possible, spotting rounds were not used. Usually this ment that the firing positions had to be accurately surveyed, weather data accurate, and the target up to half maximum range of the guns.

The main fire mode for defence was a "sulku" (barrage). A "sulku" target was 200x100 meter area it would be (again) fired with maximum rof and last for a 1-2 minutes. In addition to artillery FOs, infantry company commanders could request barrages in their defence zones. Each barrage target had usually a flare signal associated to it so that it could be requested even when radio or field phone lines were not working.

In 1943 a Finnish artillery officer invented so called "korjausmuunnin" (adjustment transformer) that could be used to correct artillery fire without having to know where the firing batteries were. After that, Finnish FOs regularly directed fire of many (in some cases over 20) artillery batallions at the same target.

- Tommi

[Guest tero]

The Finnish arty was the most accurate arty of the war.

You left out:

- each and every gun had its tube tested and rated for accuracy. Even the ones captured from the Soviets right after capture.

- Finnish arty would habitually fire "at the sound of the guns" WHEN the contact to the FO was lost due to the fact that there were virtually no radios. Almost all communications were based on phone lines which were often cut at a critical junction when the Soviet arty started falling. The fire was more often than not highly accurate nontheless because even the flimsiest of fire plans had multiple target references named and preplotted.

- the firing positions WERE accurately surveyed well before 1939, weather data WAS accurate, and most of the time the target WAS no further than half the maximum range of the guns.

- special cameras were used to survey the terrain (even before the war) with which the terrain elevations could be calculated accuraterly. The camera had a special lense system developed in Finland because Zeiss said the lenses could not be manufactured. All these cameras were ordered destroyd by the Soviets after the war. Only one was saved.

- Firing method used was developed by a guy called Nenonen in the early -30's.

[tss]

tero wrote:

The Finnish arty was the most accurate arty of the war.

I don't know enough of artillery practices of other countries to completely agree with that statement. Certainly Finnish artillery was among the most accurate and in any case better than German or Soviet arty, but I'm not certain on its relation to Western Allies.

weather data WAS accurate

Using WWII methods it was not possible to always have accurate weather data. I have myself done 6-8 artillery weather reports using the old methods so I'm quite confident in saying that.

First, it was not possible to obtain accurate wind data during a heavy rain. Second, the most common flight times that were used were between 20-40 seconds. For 20 second weather report you have to be able to see the Pilot balloon up to 500 meter altitude. For 40 second flight time the altitude is 2000 meters. If the cloud cover was lower than that (a pretty common occurrence), obtaining accurate weather data was impossible.

I think that the first radio soundes that can be used in cloud cover were tested during WWII but I seriously doubt that they were in widspread use.

- Tommi

[IntelWeenie]

WRT having a fire mission end immediately after the death of the FO or the arty firing until empty, I would like to propose an intermediate solution.

When a FO is killed, randomize the number of rounds fired after his demise. The higher the experience of the FO, the fewer "extra" rounds, with the possibility of the fire mission being immediately canceled. Of course, it the FO is still adjusting, no further rounds would be fired in any case.

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"Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb

[Jager 7]

IntelWeenie,

I like that idea. If during the FFE phase the rounds keep impacting until the AI shuts them off...or...you could have a random number of turns (minutes) that the fires will continue to rain down after the FO's demise. More experienced FOs have their rounds cease at the end of the current turn regardless...a less experienced FO he might get one or two more complete turns of Fires before they cease. I agree that all should stop if the FO is KIA during adjustment...that's realistic.

Out here...

[Guest tero]

>I don't know enough of artillery practices of other countries to completely agree with that statement. Certainly Finnish artillery was among the most accurate and in any case better than German or Soviet arty, but I'm not certain on its relation to Western Allies.

I see no need to be gun shy about this. Case in point: early during Winter War, 1st of December, there was a gunnery duel between Finnish shore battery at Russarö (visual range finding and fire direction only) and a Soviet detachment comprised of the cruiser Kirov and two destroyers. At 24 kilometers (!!!) the shore battery engaged the formation, blanketed it with the first salvo and subsequently scored two hits on one of the destroyers. To my knowledge the furthest the Western (naval) artillery scored hits under radar control was around 20-22 kilometers.

>Using WWII methods it was not possible to always have accurate weather data. I have myself done 6-8 artillery weather reports using the old methods so I'm quite confident in saying that.

OK. Do you accept SUFFICIENTLY accurate to warrant high confidence in the first rounds being on target ? I've seen the old method in use myself too (SlRtR 3/85) and the results were not too shabby, considering the guns were WWII vintage converted, captured Soviet 76mm AA guns and later the legendary 88's on their last leg I presume.

>First, it was not possible to obtain accurate wind data during a heavy rain. Second, the most common flight times that were used were between 20-40 seconds. For 20 second weather report you have to be able to see the Pilot balloon up to 500 meter altitude. For 40 second flight time the altitude is 2000 meters. If the cloud cover was lower than that (a pretty common occurrence), obtaining accurate weather data was impossible.

Yes. But I have never read of a WWII firemission being said to have been bogus because of faulty weather data. Those have always been atributed to FO error.

>I think that the first radio soundes that can be used in cloud cover were tested during WWII but I seriously doubt that they were in widspread use.

I think the meathod they mostly used was the tested "seat of their pants" device.

[tss]

tero wrote:

I see no need to be gun shy about this.

Yes, there were very many cases where Finnish artillery started firing suddenly without spotting rounds and hit targets.

But there were also cases when they missed. Off my head I can remember three cases where Finnish attack failed because they were caught in their own artillery fire (Honkaniemi during Winter War, one attack of Jääkäriprikaati in summer '44, and one JR7 attack on road to Petroskoi, though in the last case the mortar rounds actually hit the intended target but nobody had remembered to tell the gunners that it had already been captured. The 2nd Lt. who was responsible for this mistake was mortally wounded in the barrage) and one case where German SS troops were hit.

Saying that, I'm still confident that Finnish artillery was among the most accurate of the war, but I'm still not certain that it was absolutely the best. One Soviet captain that was captured at Ihantala said that because of Finnish artillery, Ihantala was a worse place to be than Stalingrad. (He had been there, also).

OK. Do you accept SUFFICIENTLY accurate to warrant high confidence in the first rounds being on target ?

Yes, in nearly all conditions. The usual flight times were so short that the wind error wasn't too severe unless the wind was quite high. In those ranges temperature, air pressure, and humidity are the most important parameters and they could always be measured accurately.

I made just some calculations that are based on my memory of a lecture that we were given in army five years ago, so don't even think these figures are accurate. (Unless, of course, someone wants to fire artillery against me. In that case, feel free to use them).

The longest flight times that are now in common use are around 120 seconds (25 - 30 km). At those ranges, the maximal effect that the wind has on the shell is around 750 meters when the wind is high (I don't remember actual figures, something like 20-25 m/s).

Now, using high school physics and supposing that the wind causes a constant acceleration (not true but I'm not in the mood of solving differential equations involving unknown quantities right now) we can estimate the size of wind error in shorter ranges. Furthermore, assuming that the wind coefficient is linear to the strength of wind we can estimate that in a more common (but still quite rare) wind of 15-20 m/s the error at 120s would be around 500 m.

Using these figures (t=120, s=500) and the equation s=1/2*at^2, we get a=2s/t^2 = 0.07 m/s^2. Substituting this for t=20 gives error of about 14 meters. This is so small that it matters only when firing at point targets and those rounds are in any case adjusted individually so the error is not significant. For t=30 we get s=31 m. Still not high, but it may cause a strike to cover only 2/3 of the intended target area. Whether this matters or not depends on the situation. For t=40, s=56 m. With the target area being 100x100 meters, this may be significant.

In some weird cases the upper wind may be opposite to lower wind. I personally encountered this once when there was ~14 m/s East wind on the ground but 20-30 m/s West wind at 2 km and above. In these cases the errors could be double of the above as well as in those cases where a tired weatherman puts up the theodolite 180 degrees wrong direction (that didn't happen to us but the NCO students did it once. Luckily it was not a "live" report).

All the errors are so small that an experienced forward observer can anticipate them, for example, by firing one round at an unrelated target and calibrating the guns that way.

I've seen the old method in use myself too (SlRtR 3/85) and the results were not too shabby

Same place, I/95, though it was called SLRR at the time. Were you at Isosaari or did you have the possibility to enjoy the Archipelago and old Russian fortifications at "the Rock"? (In case you don't know or remember, the weather station where I was is situated in the East end of Isosaari).

Yes. But I have never read of a WWII firemission being said to have been bogus because of faulty weather data. Those have always been atributed to FO error.

Or in some cases to errors in gun positions. 2nd Lt. Holmström tells in his memoirs that he once directed a harrasment fire against Soviets that ended up harrassing more their own troops. The gun crew accidentally mixed up half and full charges.

I too think that not many (if any) artillery barrages landed in wrong positions because of an incorrect weather report. However, accuracy of the report (estimated in the report itself in the scale of 1 to 3) was one factor on the FO's decision on whether to fire spotting rounds or not.

I think the meathod they mostly used was the tested "seat of their pants" device.

Yes, supplemented by a new weather report each 3 hours, day and night.

- Tommi

[Olle Petersson]

Some corrections to the physics;

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss:

... flight times ... around 120 seconds (25 - 30 km). At those ranges, the maximal effect that the wind has on the shell is around 750 meters when the wind is high (I don't remember actual figures, something like 20-25 m/s).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, I'll use time t=120s, windspeed v=22.5m/s gives deviation s=750m for the calculations...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Now, using high school physics and supposing that the wind causes a constant acceleration we can estimate the size of wind error in shorter ranges. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

An acceptable approximation since the sideway movement will be much slower than wind velocity.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Furthermore, assuming that the wind coefficient is linear to the strength of wind...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not acceptable, since the drag is linear to v^3 !

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>... we can estimate that in a more common (but still quite rare) wind of 15-20 m/s the error at 120s would be around 500 m. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Using the (relatively) simple equation

s=k*v^3*t^2

where k is a constant, and the given state that s=750m for t=120s and v=22.5m/s gives us

k=4.57*10^-6 s/m^2.

Changeing v to 17.5m/s will give s=352m.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Substituting this for t=20 gives error of about 14 meters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

v=17.5m/s t=20s => s=9.8m, even smaller...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>For t=30 we get s=31 m.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

s=22m...

Anyway, the reasoning about wind being a fairly insignificant factor holds.

Cheers

Olle, M Sc

[This message has been edited by Olle Petersson (edited 08-31-2000).]

[Hans]

Well I won't comment on the MET messages, those things were always a curse to calculate manually!

Comment on artillery

Apon the death of the FO, theory wise another FO should be able to go up to that freguency and continue missions.

As stated earlier each mission would continue after the Fire direction officer had issued his fire order.

An Infantry Platoon, Company or other commander would also have access to these radio frequencies and last but not least the Maneuver battalion would be monitoring the company and lower radio nets and could forward calls for fire to the appropriate close or reinforcing support indirect system.

especially its own internal 81mm and 4.2

Best way to handle it in CM. When a FO dies his mission would carry on for a random amount of time and then other FOs and Commanders would still be able to use those shells but at a greater time frame (for an FO whose time was 3 minutes would go to 5-7 minutes for the outsiders)plus a random amount of chance that no contact could be made.

Hans

Former FO

A Btry 1/2 FA