can smoke shells hurt infantry?

[deanco]

The reason I ask is that in a recent PBEM, I had a StuG IIIG climb up on top of a hill with good LOS on 2 groups of enemy infantry. I figured I'd let him have his pick of targets. I was surprised when the StuG decided to fire 2 smoke shells with no orders to do so. I watched the targeting thing in the replay and each time it pointed at an enemy unit but at the point of the target line it said, "Area Fire". The StuG was low on HE shells at this time, I think he had about 6 left. Anyway, he did it on his own volition...my question is, why?

DeanCo--

[JoePrivate]

That's the TacAI operating, it is attempting to conserve ammo, in this case HE, and I think with the smoke it is masking it's presence from the enemy, ie unseen equals survival. This is my take anyway, I have seen it before. You can still manually target and use all of the remaining HE shells.

[Private Pike]

I've had a Tiger do when it was short of HE and Infantry was approaching (from about 500m away) Sadly the Smoke was perfect cover fro the US advance and stoped the 2 HMGs I had from opening up on the infantry in the open.

[Guest Scott Clinton]

Yes.

I have lost men from squads that I was trying to cover with off board 81mm smoke. It has only happend twice, and the rounds landed right on top of them, but it is possible.

[M Hofbauer]

interesting observatio. I have asked myself before if the - at least theoretical - possibility of smoke rounds hurting inf exists. now I know. thanks for sharing.

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"Hehe nah u have some valid points mate but umm well be a bit nicer." (GAZ_NZ)

[Valdor]

Most smoke rounds in WWII were white phosphorus (WP or 'willy pete') which had a tremendous casualty producing effect against infantry. There is a very good statement by Patton in Sicily that 4.2" mortars firing WP were much more effective than 105mm HE and that the Germans were terrified of WP.

Of course, I have no idea how CM models this, as I am waiting for the full game to be delivered and have only played the Demo

(I figure I should get CM about the same time as my pre-order of BG2. I'll have to give up either sleep or work---or both! )

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A66

1st MRB

[Banshee]

There is no WP in CM. There is huge amount of discussions about this in the search.

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[jshandorf]

Hmm... I would prefer that tanks NOT fire smoke if they are low on HE cause then your opponent would know that your tank is low on HE. That is bad. Trust me on this.

Jeff

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

interesting observatio. I have asked myself before if the - at least theoretical - possibility of smoke rounds hurting inf exists. now I know. thanks for sharing.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

in Real Life™, I have come across two instances where smoke shells hurt/killed friendlies. One was during Cassino, where a cut-off party of Kiwis and Ghurkas (IIRC) received the bottom end of the shells fired to protect their colleagues in the village onto their position. The second was a report of an infantryman killed during an advance by the 3rd UK ID at the Seine bridgehead of Verdon (sp?) who was hit by a short smokeshell. Nothing to do with WP in either case, and IIRC the actual smoke shells were not WP.

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Andreas

[Vanir]

Heh. Funny thing is, I have a heck of a time getting my tanks to fire smoke. Every time I've tried when they are in LOS of the enemy they cancel my smoke order, target an enemy unit, and open up with HE or AP.

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No, there will be no sequels. Charles and Steve have given up wargame design in disgust and have gone off to Jamaica to invest their new-found wealth in the drug trade. -Michael emrys

[Guest Scott Clinton]

Frankly, I have never seen my tanks do this. I HAVE seen my tanks fire AP at enemy infantry when they were out of HE...and HE at enemy armor when they were out of AP.

There is always the posiblility that your AFV saw a 'soft target' that also posed a threat...and fired smoke to 'sheild' itself from the threat. Just an idea.

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[Guest Pillar]

I think if ANY casing or shell, smoke or otherwise, hit's you at some 500m/s it's going to hurt.

[deanco]

Thanks, folks, for your quick and informative responses. I will say that he immediately picked a point about 340m away that was between what had to be unidentified infantry, and my forces. So I'm not sure who the Stug thought he was smoke-screening himself from from that distance, and the shells did not land between him and the enemy anyway. In between times he DID fire HE at another group of infantry far from the smoke target. Each time he switched his attention to the other area, he fired smoke. Can anyone else set me straight? BTS?

(edited after going back to watch the film again)

DeanCo--

[This message has been edited by deanco (edited 09-15-2000).]

[Tanaka]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by deanco:

... In between times he DID fire HE at another group of infantry far from the smoke target. Each time he switched his attention to the other area, he fired smoke. Can anyone else set me straight..."

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi...

Dont forget that YOU know that the game will end in turn "X" and that the enemy is beaten ( inside the map there is no more a strong enemy resistance )...

The Tank crew don´t know these, what they do know is they don´t see any real immediate threat in the 1st group (soft target) and they are loo on HE ammo... So what they will do ( the same you will do if you were in the tank ) is conserve the HE ammo and protect them selfs.

As far as the 2nd soft target, and the smoke, I need to know more...

Were both targetes clearly identified ?

Was your tank buttoned ?

my English is not the best

João

[This message has been edited by Tanaka (edited 09-15-2000).]

[Los]

Nearly all (no marking, meaning non-colored) US smoke shells used WP as their smoke producing compound. To this day all US mortar smoke remains WP.

I don't know if CM smoke causes casualties (I'll find out) for certain though I am certain that smoke bursting amidts troops in some of my games has casued them to haul ass in panic. As for real life, well would you want a ten or twenty pound shell falling in your lap, smoke (which is most usually WP) or HE?

Los

[deanco]

Hi Tanaka,

The smoke was an area target command and it appers as though the StuG was trying to put smoke between 2 groups of infantry. That is, just in front of the enemy. This is where he was aiming, OK? The Stug was behind enemy lines so the end of the target line (the aiming point) was not between him and the enemy, nor did the shells fall there. If I were to make a guess as to the reasoning behind the Stug's actions, I would say that he was trying to help his teammates by smokescreening them from the enemy. And the Stug was unbuttoned. Hope that helps.

Hi Los,

Thanks for making the effort to find out. I'll be checking back from time to time.

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Just to be absolutely clear : I do not have a jihad going here, nor am I crying bug. I am trying to learn something about military tactics by understanding the AI's reasoning. Thanks all,

DeanCo--

[This message has been edited by deanco (edited 09-16-2000).]

[Tanaka]

Deanco,

"...And the Stug was unbuttoned."

You still did not said to me if the targetes were clearly identified.

When a Tank is buttoned the enemy infatry, without AT capability, will never target it.

As your Stug was unbuttoned that infantry, even without AT capability, could kill the Stug commander. So as your Stug was low in HE ammo ( MG ammmo ? ) and probably, even if it fires, with a very low chance of doing some real demage in the infantry, the Stug decided to protect him self...

This is just one possible explenation for the matter. The other explenation you gave is possible too... As some one said "The TacAi works in mysterious ways "

Personaly I've a rule ... never contradict the TacAi... 85% of the time it is doing the right thing, the other 15% comes with the territory. If you contradict the TacAi, most of the time, you will only lose time... At the 1st opportunity , normaly in the beginning of the accion turn, the TacAi will overule your command and do what it wants...

This doesn´t apply to the area target fire (not smoke) order... the TacAi can´t guess if the enemy is in the woods or in an house...

João

[This message has been edited by Tanaka (edited 09-16-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Tanaka (edited 09-16-2000).]

[deanco]

Hi Tanaka,

I think I already stated 2 times that the smoke was an Area Target command, and thus, there was really no human target. The closest enemy to the Area Target command WAS fully ID'ed as a 1919 MG. However, the Stug had just come over a hill, and I had sent him on a route there where he remained out of sight as much as possible. So I doubt if the Stug had as much info on that MG as the guys who were taking fire from it. Or does he? I doubt it, the tank can't know what the infantry sees, can he? Anyway, he popped over the hill, was going to fire smoke at the area in question, then changed his mind when he saw a big group of enemy infantry to the right. He changed ammo and fired HE at the infantry (red line) twice. One by one the squads ran into a nearby building and out of LOS. When there was no one left to be seen in that area (all in the building) he swiched to smoke and area fire again (white line) and fired 2 smoke shells. One fell between the enemy MG and my forces, 2 squads which were 30m away and throwing grenades at the MG. The other smoke shell was long and didn't screen anything at all.

You said, the TacAI works in mysterious ways. Well, I sure as heck would like to clear up this mystery. As a novice player I could learn something about war this way. Believe me, Tanaka, I usually do NOT contradict the AI. I'm sure he knows more about small unit tactics than me at this point. That's why I want to know why he did it.

However, next turn I manually targeted the house where everyone was hidden and blew it to hell! I was happy I took over at that point, I can assure you.

So now I have 2 questions : can smoke shells hurt infantry in CM (is it modeled, I think we agree that a big exploding thing, no matter what it is, can scare or hurt given the right conditions in real life), and why would the Stug shoot smoke in that situation with no orders to do so? To kill Infantry? Protect his buddies? Protect himself?

DeanCo--

[Tanaka]

Hi Deanco,

"can smoke shells hurt infantry in CM ?"

I don´t think so, in my pbem experience I never had a casuallity do to smoke ammo... some suprecion yes

"why would the Stug shoot smoke in that situation with no orders to do so? To kill Infantry? Protect his buddies? Protect himself?"

I think it would be to protect himself from the m1919, sinse the stug was unbuttoned.

"So I doubt if the Stug had as much info on that MG as the guys who were taking fire from it. Or does he? I doubt it, the tank can't know what the infantry sees, can he?"

If the stug as line of sight to a clearly identified target , even if it was identified by other unit, it sees them clearly (radio)... As far TacAi goes Before the stug has line of sight it know nathing abaut the m1919. After the vers 1.05 the TacAi has some kind of "memory" after been shot at, and it remembers the direction of the last threat for while...

João

[deanco]

bump...anyone else?

DeanCo--

[deanco]

I still haven't gotten a decent answer yet, only speculation, so I'm sending it to the top. Why did he fire Area Fire smoke?

DeanCo--