mensch Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 I'm sure this has been discussed to no end and I tried a search but my lethargic abilities can't find it. if you have the thread post it so this does not turn into DO A SEARCH thread. ok here it goes: A PBEM'er is running and driving off anything that he has on the map because its going bad before he/it/she pushes the command-U for surrender. does this (exited troops) not count for my victory points when he surrenders?if he/it/she does this on the last few round just to wait out the game, should this count as a retreat from that player and I get more VP?is this player penalized for this? I mean I have driven off Trucks or Gun carriers when they have no more funktion to me, instead of waiting for them to get shot up by some tank or platoon... but running off full squads on turn 28 out of 30 just so if he surrenders it does not count as captured troops.... major "gamey" I would not say but If I was the enemy force and saw a pull out and a bunch of guys standing infront of me I would capture the twits holding those little white flags and send a force to go get the rest of those idiots running back.. or at least chase them with arty or tankfire. thanks for the help if you can guide me to the right thread if it exists or answers that you give. mensch ------------- Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuka Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 Geez Grego, Do a search! newbie, gumbo dweeb! seriously though, I have no freekin idea what your'e talking about, a 6 pack of special brew will do that to you, plus some red wine but thats another story, hehe Name the heretic that employs such tactics and I shall personally slay them for you! My word is my bond, my bond is my promise, my promise is not to be trusted, and anything I say is not to be taken in vain against me, so sayeth the lord...burrrp!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joeri Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 I agree with Topi and wwb_99 that retreating can be a valid tactic. Especially in games where the point score counts. I'm thinking of the Rugged Defense tournament here. In this tournament you play two games and based on the total amount of points you either continue or are out. If you surrender in one game this very seriously affects your chances. A well conducted retreat is much better. In other games it can be annoying (depending on taste) if your opponent prolongs the game when you have clearly won. Personally I wouldn't have a problem with it. I think it's quite difficult to move off your forces from a lost position (speaking from experience). I see it as a new goal in the game. Like, no chance off holding the village but I have to get the remaining troops out unharmed. For the opponent the new goal is to destroy the others forces completely before they are out of reach. Just my opinion, Joeri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topi Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 I would actually think that the abovementioned tactic is good playing. Reasoning: The enemy commander sees that he can't win the day so most of the still usable forces are pulled out from the battle so they may regroup later. Only a token force stays behind to delay the enemy. Successfully performing that sort of withdrawal under fire is quite hard, so I think the opponent should not be penalized for performing it succesfully. And if you are truly winning by a wide margin, why not flank him and prevent the escape? Topi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 Pulling back is definitely a real world tactic which wargamers seldom use. We often forget that, if we were real commanders, the survival of a force capable of fighting tomorrow is at least a lofty goal. I am currently retreating in two scenarios. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mensch Posted November 8, 2000 Author Share Posted November 8, 2000 yes yes yes.. a tactic I use too.. I'm not saying its gamey since bugging out is normal.. I want to know is there a penalty for doing so.. does your troops count as half the vp if they left the map opposed to staying on the board.... hmmm BTS??? clear up a simple question that may only take one sentence to do?? --------- Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted November 8, 2000 Share Posted November 8, 2000 mensch wrote: but running off full squads on turn 28 out of 30 just so if he surrenders it does not count as captured troops.... major "gamey" Just about the only army that expected its men to fight in one place until they died was the Red Army in 1941. The others would recognize a defeat and withdraw the troops to fight on another day. And definitely all armies would prefer withrawing to surrendering. If I'm getting beat up badly in a game, I'll try to save whatever troops I can. I think that not doing it is more gamey than doing it. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadayne Posted November 8, 2000 Share Posted November 8, 2000 You are REWARDED by performing a successful withdrawal. These are the guys in the AAR that come up "OK" even though you have 150 "captured" troops. As such, they don't figure into your opponent's score as killed or captured. A successful withdrawal is therefore both a sound tactic and not at all gamey, since, if you're simply running backwards off the map, withdrawing troops will likely be gunned down anyway. ------------------ "I'm the Quarterback. I make the plays. You back the plays I make." -Harvey Keitel to his adopted son in the movie "Dusk til Dawn" (about 3 hours before they're both ripped apart and eaten alive by vampires) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted November 8, 2000 Share Posted November 8, 2000 In a Scenario, yes, this seems a little gamey for PBEM purposes. But in an Operation, I don't see a probelme with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted November 8, 2000 Share Posted November 8, 2000 Boredom in the office requires that I add a little quote from Rommel himself. Once, the General asked if he thought himself a great general. He replied: "No, I have yet to conduct a withdrawl." In the operational sense sense especially, withdrawls were and are very tricky to pull off without creating a rout. Probably the single most difficult operation the Germans pulled off in the Second World War was von Mansteins retreat from the Caucus Mountains.\ Tactically withdrawls are also difficult. It is hard to fight when running away, and who wants to volunteer to be in the rearguard? WWB ------------------ Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salatamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted November 8, 2000 Share Posted November 8, 2000 Tommi - another army that was very good on having its troops die in the line instead of withdrawing was the German army post 1944 and the spineless generals who rather send their troops to their deaths instead of facing reality because they were afraid of Hitler. In a PBEM, if I can not retreat quickly, I would rather surrender, points be damned, and start a new game which is much more rewarding for both players than exchanging files with nothing happening for about a week. Or I just stay put and fight it out, regardless of how many of my troops buy it. But I also don't care very much about ladder points and don't participate in any tournaments. WWB_99 few people would want to volunteer to be in the rearguard, but you can always order it. I suspect my grandfather got his Iron Cross for a rearguard action in Russia, not a pretty story. ------------------ Andreas <a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a > Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-08-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daveman Posted November 8, 2000 Share Posted November 8, 2000 I've never pulled back in the face of imminent defeat. I figure at this level game I'd surrender if I was badly beaten. I did have one memorable game where both my opponent and I were exhausted... what little we each had left were all dug in looking across no-mans-land at each other. I offered a cease-fire which seemed to be the realistic way to end the game. I edged him out in points though ------------------ "Whenever a mission ends and I still have a member of the red team standing, I have to ask myself: did I do enough to ensure my own safety?" - Old Man Murray review on SWAT3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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