Villers-bocage and 1.05

[Henri]

As one who has probably played this scenario more than anybody else (and according to one thread who therefore should be suspected of Nazi sympathies : ), I guess it is only fitting that I report on my four games playing this scenario with 1.05.

The bad news is that I lost every time ; the good news is that I saw no indication of tank turrets traversing to shoot at crews from disabled vehicles when they should not have.

I DID notice that unbuttoned tank commanders seem to be considerably more vulnerable than in previous versions, and in every game, Wittmann buttoned down as soon as the shooting began and about half the time, he was took a casualty before halfway through the scenario. In one case, TWO if Wittman's crew were killed in the first 30 seconds , which I have never observedbefore.

It's too early for me to draw any more conclusions abut the 1.05 patch, except that the Villers-Bocage scenario now seems even tougher to win (how dahell did I ever win this ), and that the crew problem is greatly improved if not solved.

henri

[Formerly Babra]

Holy Mother of God! I missed a patch! The Borg may desimilate me any time...

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Sounds like 100% weapons-grade bolonium to me.

[GolGotha999]

Henri - coming from one who has been trounced in the Villers scen, I'm wondering if you have any PBEM's or anything saved of you beating an opponent - such data would prove valuable to someone such as me trying to win this darn thing - thx for anything you can provide!

Gol

[CommanderC]

After numerous losses as the Germans in Villers-Bocage with version 1.04, I was finally victorious in my first game with version 1.05. Tank AI was superb. I scored a 71 to 29 victory, playing as the Germans, full FOW, force levels and experience normal.

Has anyone done better than this?

I won't say here how I did it, but I will if anyone asks... with the proper spoiler alerts, of course.

It may still be too early to tell, but I would say that 1.05 solves all the major tank AI issues.

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"He tasks me!" - Captain Ahab, referring to the great white whale in Moby Dick

[Wolfe]

I have won Villers (under 1.04), even gotten the AI to surrender once! But I had to cheat to do it. Well, atleast a little. My 'cheat' was to edit the file and remove the damn infantry. I also buttoned up all the on-map Brit AFVs (which I think is somewhat realistic given how unprepared the Brits were supposed to be at the time of the attack).

Will have to try it under 1.05.

I've also gone back and played this one from a saved game ~half way through (under the same conditions). I lost 2 times and gotten a draw and a minor victory once each. So editing the scenario *still* isn't a guarantee of a victory! I think my 'cheats' are reasonable, and may be worth a shot. Just save it under a different name so you don't accidentally over-write the scenario.

BTW, I lose Wittman's tank every time anyway.

- Chris

[This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 08-25-2000).]

[aka_tom_w]

I just played that great scenario for the first time (blind) as the Allies and got a 62 to 38 Minor Allied victory as the Axis Ai was forced to Surrender two turns after their reinforcments arrived.

I ko'd all 5 Axis vehicles and lost only 15 of my own and most were those half tracks that get toasted early no matter what you do. I lost only one firefly but it took down the one reinforcement Tiger in the same turn

It was fun

and it was even more fun to Win!

Played it for the first time ever and I used the v1.05 patch.

I thought the patch and the scenario played very well.

-tom w

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "Remember that no dumb bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

G. S. Patton

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[aka_tom_w]

Played the second time

I got a 85 to 15 total Allied Victory

I ko'd all 5 Axis vehicles and only lost 4 of my own, 3 half tracks and a Stuart.

This is fun

I guess I need to Play the Wittman Scanerio against a good human player.

but it sure is fun to beat the AI!

-tom w

[Wolfe]

Um, Tom. The concept of playing Villers-Bocage is to play as *Germans* (Wittmann), not Americans.

Just got a draw under 1.05 (no cheats this time!). Killed 21 vehicles, but lost all my tanks in only 2 turns!

Tank AI gets better and better. But the infantry can still be a pain since they are legit targets when no AFVs are in sight. I did my best to eliminate as many of them as early as possible, saving the AFVs for later. Seemed to work pretty well. It was the reinforcements that nailed me.

Still, a great scenario to play.

- Chris

[This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 08-25-2000).]

[aka_tom_w]

Sorry Chris

I didn't know.....

I usually prefer to take the Allies and I firgured these damn Tigers would put up a REALLY good fight. But the first one that arrives is sort of unsupoorted and easily distracted and out flanked.

so I see your point I have not tried the Germans yet and I'm sure it would be MUCH more difficult, especially if the AI uses Half tracks to distract while running anything it can up the flanks.

I'll try the Germans next but I really did have fun with the Allies taking out those three Tigers

-tom w

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "Remember that no dumb bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

G. S. Patton

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[:USERNAME:]

I have never played as the allies and never will!!!

Its a standard. A great value scenario and I think I even played it twice when I first got the game. My "victory" as the germans holding on to the rear flag in 105 felt too real. Discretion is the better part of valour..

Lewis

[Wolfe]

aka_tom_w wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I didn't know.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh. Well, you're not alone. I was never really into WWII all that much before CM, and I had no idea who Wittmann was until Henri started posting about this scenario over in War-historical.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I have not tried the Germans yet and I'm sure it would be MUCH more difficult, especially if the AI uses Half tracks to distract while running anything it can up the flanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You might say that.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'll try the Germans next but I really did have fun with the Allies taking out those three Tigers <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can imagine. But the real fun of Villers comes from the intense close-quarter fighting and the sense of accomplishment when facing down overwhelming odds and even sometimes beating those odds!

Good luck.

- Chris

[Maximus]

Oh com'on Tom, as a veteran member, and with all the talk surrounding this scenario, you really didn't know that the Villers-Boccage scenario was supposed to be played as Whittman? I find that hard to believe.

[RedWolfTrevize]

Are we playing the same scenario? I usually get a tactical victory as the Germans, normally killing about 8-10 tanks (they are poorly trained...) and hosing down a half-dozen halftracks, MGs, etc.

[BasilD]

Is it really that hard? First (and only time) I played it I got a draw result. Wittman wreaked utter havoc, I think he destroyed 12 vehicles singlehandedly, but got knocked out just before my help arrived.

But he scrambled off alive to find another Tiger for another day The rest of the boys didnt do as well, but bloodied the allies up pretty good. Lost all my tanks in the end but the allies were so bloodied it was a draw.

[Guest HENTZAU]

Hey this is a fun scenario with no fog of war, makes me feel like a german Alvin York in a tank. I ran out of stuff to shoot at lol. I guess i'm ready to start playing with fog of war like the big boys do.

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GolGotha999:

Henri - coming from one who has been trounced in the Villers scen, I'm wondering if you have any PBEM's or anything saved of you beating an opponent - such data would prove valuable to someone such as me trying to win this darn thing http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm/spiny.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, I'm afraid I didn't keep any record of my victories (I only won with pre-1.05 versions). when I say "won", I mean as the GErmans that I held both flags at the end -it is probably possible to get a draw by holding the original flag and destroying enough Allied tanks. I always resign as soon as my last Tiger is killed, although I could sometimes conceivably get at least a draw.

SPOILERS FOLLOW

Here is how I won with the early versions of CM:

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It is impossible to win by going through the center, you have to go left or right. I usually go left, after advancing between the buildings to destroy the AT gun and maybe a halftrack. The idea is to eventually gt Wittmann's tank at the left end of the left-to-right road on the edge of town, from where he can snipe both at vehicles crossing the road and at those closer to the German reinforcement site. I achieve this by moving Wittmann at least halfway along the road at "fast", then maneuver by reversing and so on being careful not to expose the tank to a side shot.

When the reinforcements arrive, I also send them tothe left of the woods to blast away at the enemy, maneuvering one of them towards Wittmann, the idea being for two Tigers to go through the town to get the scond flag just before the scenario ends.

With 1.05, so far in 5 tries, I have not succeeded in achieving this. I am interested to hear how anyone won by taking two both flags -assuming that is possible.

Henri

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

Well, I havent played the individual scenario yet, but I assume it is similar in concept to the operation, which I have played extensively. The biggest thing stopping you as Axis is the difficulty spotting the enemy (until its too late...gulp)

I have managed a tac victory in the operation, as it is a destroy mission, but damn it was costly! I walked home from the engagement leaving large portions of Panzer Lehr as smoking wreckage in the bocage... It was fun though

[CommanderC]

In my recent 71/29 victory with 1.05, I only held the one original flag at the Axis reinforcement point. I've never even tried capturing the other flag in town.

It seems like you shouldn't be able to do better than a draw without capturing both flags, but you can if you destroy enough Allied equipment.

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"He tasks me!" - Captain Ahab, referring to the great white whale in Moby Dick

[Wolfe]

*** SPOILERS!!! ***

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My last game was a 69-31 tactical victory. I only held the German starting position; never got close to taking the flag in town.

Started Wittmann out going straight down the main road (the 2 flags sit on this road). I used 'Move' rather than hunt or fast so he would go more slowly. He did, and managed two kills before turning down the angled road where all those juicy HTs are. By this time, he was buttoned (which I think is actually a benefit). His MG took out the AT gun, and I just kept him moving forward.

The PIAT team missed 3 times. He took out a couple HTs and a Carrier. He then turned (still moving) onto the road leading to the center of town. I stopped him between 2 houses before the intersection so he wouldn't turn his turret to engage either of the Stuarts who had fled to either side of him. There were still a couple of perfectly good HT targets behind, but because he was buttoned, he ignored them and kept his turret generally forward.

Because the more important targets were always ahead of him *and* he was buttoned, the turret never really had a chance to engage targets off to the side or behind. I think this strategy worked pretty well.

He managed to kill a couple of Cromwells before fast moving down the street (again trying to keep the turret from engaging the Stuarts as he passed thru the intersection). It worked well as he engaged another Cromwell previously hidden by smoke. Wittmann was now near the center of town and essentially surrounded. But the buildings protected his sides, and there were only HTs and Stuarts behind.

Reinforcements show up, and I send the PzIV way out to the left along the road to eventually angle back in towards the town. I moved 1 Tiger between the 2 houses near the start, and the other 2 followed the PzIV until they get to the left of the 'forest', then they turn towards the town to protect Wittmann's back as well as clean up some HTs, Sherman IIIs, and Stuarts.

Unfortunately, Wittmann died the turn after the backup arrives because of a shot into his side armor *through* a building corner. Grrr. Still, he did manage to kill 1 more Cromwell and a HT which was hiding out of LOS behind a building (I shelled the building itself, and the crew abandoned the HT because of this).

My Tiger guarding the start flag position had his TC taken out by a squad of infantry seconds after they arrived! Grrr. He only ended up killing 1 enemy AFV and died from a shot from a Firefly he never saw.

The PzIV didn't fare much better. He got the other Carrier, but was nailed by a Cromwell in town, even though he was set up in a pretty good position and got off the first shot.

My 2 Tigers to the left of the woods fared much better, getting some good kills as well as a couple of cheap ones through building corners. I eventually had to withdraw them as they were targeting a couple of Shermans trying to come out of the center of town, but enemy Cromwells and Fireflys were starting to appear off to the right, setting up the eventuality of losing my Tigers because of their slow turret traverse. And indeed, just as I was beginning to pull them out, one did get nailed. Though my other surviving AFV did manage to nail the Firefly with a cheap shot through the corner of a building.

I withdrew this Tiger back to my starting position to fight what was left of the enemy reinforcements. He nailed another Firefly, 2 Cromwells, an HT, and a Sherman. I thought there was still one Firefly left, and was waiting (hopefully to ambush him), but he never came. It turns out an unidentified 'Sherman' tank hull sitting near some dead Cromwells was the last Firefly. With 2 turns left, I was only facing 2 Sherman III's (one without a gun) and 2 Cromwells (a IV and a VII). So I could have bum-rushed the other flag at this point to get a major victory. But because I didn't know where the other Firefly was, I couldn't risk losing everything. A Tactical victory.

Whew! That was long.

I *do* think that you can drive Wittmann down the main road (where all the HTs are lined up) and into the center of town so you can then work your way around to kill the enemy reinforcements from behind. Though you may need a little luck.

I have done this a couple of times, but have also lost Wittmann every time too.

Hopefully someone a bit luckier than I will fare better.

- Chris