Guest wwb_99 Posted November 3, 2000 Share Posted November 3, 2000 1) The Spanish Blue Division: They were a bunch of volunteers and were equipped and organized as a regular Wehrmacht infantry division. While Spanish names and voices would be cool, they would only be cosmetic improvements. Crack German infantry would suffice. On the historical side, note that Spain was not a combatant. Franco gave the facist true believers the opportuinity to continue the struggle. This also got rid of many rabble rousers who spent their energy shooting Russians instead of fermenting revolt. In sum, there no need to program a seperate 'Spanish' nationality. 2)Finns: Ya gotta love the Finns. While it is true that they were a minor combatant, they will be very fun to play. And let us not forget that CM is a game first and foremost. One question, are we going to have the option of 'creating' roadblocks in order to trap Russian columns. I forgot the name of the kind of attack (m-something I believe), but they were cool. 3) Rumanians, Hungarians, et al.: These troops should definitely be included. Just the Rumanian vs. Soviet Marines on the black sea coast in the high summer of 1941 and the bitter battles in Hungary in 1945 are reason enough alone, nevermind the events of the four intervening years. 4) Partisans should not be included. CM is a game concentrated on the FEBA with regular combat formations. A partisan band had neither the desire nor the ability to tangle with even the worst regular formations. WWB (edit--fixed a typo or three) [This message has been edited by wwb_99 (edited 11-03-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rune Posted November 3, 2000 Share Posted November 3, 2000 LOL...well, some things have to be kept secret untill actual work starts on CM2. As for small arms...I am confused enough with tanks and Artillery. Besides....you know I am sending you some of the documents I got from sources. Rune <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1: Were we suposed to be covering something you all arn't? that would be hard considering were not privvy to inner circle discussion's . Hey how far did you uber beta ppl get with the SVT-38 40 debate internaly ... Regards, John Waters <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rune Posted November 3, 2000 Share Posted November 3, 2000 You forgot about the awesome firepower of 5, count 'em, 5 Panthers!!!! hehehehe Actually I was surprised they got any Tigers or Panthers. They did get the wind-up Hetzers...just in time to have them used against the Germans when Hungary changed sides. You know that means we may have a Tiger vs Tiger battle. hehehehe I won't mention the captured French tanks used...there are those out there that actually like them. hehehehe Rune <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon: Rune!!!!! That is quite a fearsome armored force for what, 200,000 soldiers. Did they share those Tigers, each platoon gets one for a day or something? That is like less than one German armored diivision all told. My point nearly proven, except I bet in QB's we will face all three of those Tigers about 6000 times. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted November 3, 2000 Share Posted November 3, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rune: You forgot about the awesome firepower of 5, count 'em, 5 Panthers!!!! hehehehe Actually I was surprised they got any Tigers or Panthers. They did get the wind-up Hetzers...just in time to have them used against the Germans when Hungary changed sides. You know that means we may have a Tiger vs Tiger battle. hehehehe I won't mention the captured French tanks used...there are those out there that actually like them. hehehehe Rune <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I have a new one. Arieta Domitrescu, Rumanian masters student at this University, has a Grandfather who was assigned to an antitank unit in the Eastern Front that was armed with a 47mm cannon in 1944! How is that for some cross board killing power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted November 3, 2000 Share Posted November 3, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>4) Partisans should not be included. CM is a game concentrated on the FEBA with regular combat formations. A partisan band had no desir to tangle with even the worst regular formations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Partisans not only fought regular Wermacht troops, and the SS, but participated in support of Soviet operations on numerous occasions. Because of the ethnic complexities, partisans not only fought the Germans, but at times fought the Soviets, as well as each other. No, they didn't launch any large scale offensives, but what they did was cause regular combat troops to be diverted into search and destroy missions complicating primarily German military planning, resources, logistics and communications. Firefights with partisans were not uncommon, and surprise ambushes along lines of supply and communications all together too common from the German standpoint. To be captured by the partisans (whether Russian or German), was not a pleasant conclusion to one's military career. Whether they learned from the SS, or simply applied what they knew anyway governing the art of retaliation, they applied it very well. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 11-03-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted November 4, 2000 Share Posted November 4, 2000 'Scuse me, but since when did participation in offensive actions become a requirement for inclusion in CM? If we would apply that criteria to CM1, I guess the Volkssturm should not have been included. Again, as always, I would like to see EVERY participant modeled! ------------------ Cats aren't clean, they're covered with cat spit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted November 4, 2000 Share Posted November 4, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruno Weiss: Partisans not only fought regular Wermacht troops, and the SS, but participated in support of Soviet operations on numerous occasions. Because of the ethnic complexities, partisans not only fought the Germans, but at times fought the Soviets, as well as each other. No, they didn't launch any large scale offensives, but what they did was cause regular combat troops to be diverted into search and destroy missions complicating primarily German military planning, resources, logistics and communications. Firefights with partisans were not uncommon, and surprise ambushes along lines of supply and communications all together too common from the German standpoint. To be captured by the partisans (whether Russian or German), was not a pleasant conclusion to one's military career. Whether they learned from the SS, or simply applied what they knew anyway governing the art of retaliation, they applied it very well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Personally, I would never want to tangle with partisans, and definitely not be capured by them. But treatment of prisoners and lifestyles in the great outdoors during wartime are beyond the scope of CM. True there were large anti-partisan operations, but these would be no fun to play. A 2nd line German infantry battalion with full supporting arms vs. a weak company lacking ammo and heavy weapons, much less command and control, might be an atypical tough battle for the sweeping forces. While partisans did have a significant effect on the war, CM does not simulate train de-railments and communications failures. Not to mention the whole difficulty of defining the partisan's OOB, squad types, etc. It would be much cooler to have Croats or Slovaks (each of whom fought on the Ostfront) than partisans. Or to save the man-hours needed to program them and move the release date up. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudeLover Posted November 4, 2000 Share Posted November 4, 2000 Just a guess, but I'd think BTS would be likely to err on the side of inclusion as far as extra armies. See this old quote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also don't forget that CM3 will have Greece and Jugoslavia as well. I'd say that between that, Italy, and NA CM3 will have the most uniquely different sceanrios of all the CMs. And I will also finally get to use my Croatian OBs --Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> (From one of the many previous CM2 threads...) http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/002391.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted November 4, 2000 Share Posted November 4, 2000 While I always hated playing as or against Partisans in ASL ... they were included and they can be modeled in CM. Partisans played a much larger role in WW2 than a train derailment or two. They also didn't just participate by being on the receiving end of anti partisan sweeps. Partisans formed large armies in the rear areas and even had tank support at times. There were many full up Partisan brigades in Yugoslavia complete with tank support in 1944 (I think they had a few Stewarts). Partisans also participated in Soviet offensives in the later portion of the war by linking up with Soviet Paratroops and forming strong formations in the Axis rear areas or to secure bridgeheads. Partisans can be modeled at the level of CM. Whether BTS wants to or not is another issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted November 4, 2000 Share Posted November 4, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rune: Besides....you know I am sending you some of the documents I got from sources. Rune <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes & I got your back, to you know that just couldn't resist . Regards, John Waters ------------------ "We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field". Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannibal Posted November 4, 2000 Author Share Posted November 4, 2000 Would like to see the Italians but dont think we will .I think they will save them for the CM3 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted November 4, 2000 Share Posted November 4, 2000 rune wrote: I won't mention the captured French tanks used...there are those out there that actually like them. hehehehe An important notification for all those that love captured French tanks: I just came across a new bilingual book (Finnish - English) that describes the German tank operations of Northern Karelia. The tank strenght there peaked at full two batallions, and a lot of them were originally French. The name of the book is "Wermachtin panssarit Suomessa -- Panzers in Finland" with ISBN 9519750630. I managed to express a great deal of self control and didn't buy the book. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted November 4, 2000 Share Posted November 4, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>LOL...well, some things have to be kept secret untill actual work starts on CM2. As for small arms...I am confused enough with tanks and Artillery. Besides....you know I am sending you some of the documents I got from sources.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> (Suspecting cryptic code typical of underground partisan activity..., Obersturmfuehrer Hans Auff, Counter-Intelligence OKW-Nord, notifies Berlin of the likelihood that Secret information regarding covert operations of the clandestine CM2Beta-Klicken, may be available for intercept and recommends immediate insertion of the elite Hampstern Postbehoerden). ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 11-04-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rune Posted November 4, 2000 Share Posted November 4, 2000 This is the BBC calling.. John has a big moustache... I repeat John has a big moustache... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruno Weiss: (Suspecting cryptic code typical of underground partisan activity..., Obersturmfuehrer Hans Auff, Counter-Intelligence OKW-Nord, notifies Berlin of the likelihood that Secret information regarding covert operations of the clandestine CM2Beta-Klicken, may be available for intercept and recommends immediate insertion of the elite Hampstern Postbehoerden). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PershingII Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 SpanishBlue Division or 250 werhmach Division Betwen 1941 - March 1944 47000 spanish troops served there in Russia under German flag but dont forget this division was a independent unit.22.000 casualties and 4500 death in action they were a crack troops they fight in Leningrad in Volchov Defense they gain prestige into german army. i want to see this troops in CM2 nice OB about this troops in Hitlers^spanish Division by Gerald R.Kleinfeld and Lewis .Tambs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 Kleinfeld, Gerald R. (1979). Hitler's Spanish Legion: The Blue Division in Russia. Carbondale: Southern Illinois U Press. Hitler's Spanish Legion in fact is the only English academic work that gets on top of this unit. All other work is either in the Spanish language or is a reference to the SCW and is not as useful for a comprehensive discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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