Playing from the first person perspective

[ScottK]

This was brought up by someone else soon after the Beta Demo came out(I apologize that I can't remember who it was) but simply put, playing CM only using the level 1 view is simply incredible.

For those of you who weren't here or don't remember this mentioned before, try playing a game (start small, 500-600 pts) where you can only use the level 1 view. You can switch between your troops using the + and - keys. You are not allowed to use the mouse to move around the battlefield...you can only rotate about your men to see what they see. You ARE allowed, however, to use the [ and ] keys to represent binoculars.

Playing this way not only makes the game more challenging (I decided to do this after beating the AI for the gazzilionth time) but increases the immersion factor exponentialy. During movie playbacks you literally are on the edge of your seat as the squad your view is "attached" to makes a dash for the next building, bullets flying, explosions going off.

The confusion this perspective instills in you (its MUCH harder to determine the best positions for your men, or where you should move to next, or even being able to tell if your men are in good support of one another) really evens the fight against the AI, IMHO.

And since you can only play back the movies using level 1 views, often times you miss stuff...important stuff...like a Stug moving towards your position in the middle of a fight in town (that just happened to me and I nearly jumped out of my shorts when the Stug rounded a building right in front of one of my squads).

Can't be beat guys, I'm telling you. Wouldn't play vs a human this way (takes a long time playing the movie over and over so you can watch every one of your squads), but it certainly evens up the odds against the AI.

p.s. I DO allow myself the use of level 8 view during set up only...gives you a brief overview of the map (which any good commander would have) and makes setup go much quicker.

ScottK

[Milt Smegma]

I gotta try this! it sounds brilliant...

Fire up the Demo for the umpteenth time!.....

[Midnight Warrior]

I think it would be neat if BTS would add this as a enhanced fog of war game option. The option would permit views 1 & 8 in setup and only view 1 during the game. For view 1 the mouse scoll would be inhibited and only the unit step allowed. This I believe would lead to a more realistic tempo of operations.

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March To The Sound Of The Guns

[Disaster@work]

Occasionally when the fire and flame is really going I zoom all the way down and watch it from a Private Ryan perspective. It sure is neat. I hope that they make enough money off this that they can improve the soldier animation and model resolution, however.

[ScottK]

This way of playing also adds a whole new dimension to mortar fire. Even using the ] key to zoom in your view from your mortar team it is very difficult to discern terrain at a very far distance. This makes placing area fire with mortars more of a "feel" kind of thing...."I THINK that line of trees is the one I want to target...".

Also makes your forward troops act much more like forward observers...only THEY will be able to see if your placement of the mortar fire is innacurate or needs to be adjusted a bit.

kinda cool i think.

ScottK

[Hundminen]

I agree this is definitely immersive.

Wouldn't it be cool if BTS added a level 1 only option as patch for PBEM or internet play?

[This message has been edited by Hundminen (edited 07-18-2000).]

[L4Pilot]

I've got to join the ranks here in the request for a "View 1 Only" FOW option. It would be amazing to play CM from the soldiers POV only.

Two suggestions: 1) allow view 5 centered only on your units to represent the fact that each unit is (usually) more than one person, spread out slightly from the exact center location of the unit counter, and,

2) Allow views 3 and 4 if you purchase a "spotter plane" from the unit purchase list (this being my own particular obsession, as you might guess from my handle.)

Please BTS? Pleeeaaaasssseeee????

[Mark IV]

I haven't tried this, but it sounds like it has merit. A QB option that would lock both players' POVs for PBEM would be cool, too.

But I think it would wait until the oft-requested continuous movie feature can be implemented- then, at least, you could get your full money's worth out of the graphics by watching the whole shootin' match in views 3 and 4, once the game was over.

[Epée]

I also think it is reallya great idea, and doesnt seem to hard to implement. Make it an "Extreme FOW" option.

I hope BTS reads this and gives their opinion.

Christian

[David Aitken]

For those who enjoy playing first-person, that's great. But I don't think any efforts on BTS's part should be invested in it. CM is essentially a third-person game.

The control system is optimised for third-person - in first-person it is tricky and inaccurate. The graphics are optimised for third-person - to make them comparable quality to first-person games would (1) be a collossal waste of time, and (2) be totally impractical in terms of hardware requirements.

Moreover, first-person play takes a ridiculous amount of time - for a game which was already very time-consuming. It also makes battles very confusing, which may be realistic - but only from the individual soldiers' point-of-view. CM simulates an overview of the battlefield - you lose many of the best aspects of the game by playing first-person. It's a tactical game, not a shoot-em-up.

If you want the best possible experience from a first-person perspective, go buy a first-person game. CM is a third-person game which, wonderfully, allows viewing from any perspective - but anyone who wants BTS to enhance the first-person experience, at cost to other aspects of the game - do us all a favour and forget it.

David

[Concerned readers should note that David has been returned to his cage for the night.]

[Mark IV]

What "cost to other aspects of the game" do you perceive in the above?

[David Aitken]

> What "cost to other aspects of the game" do you perceive in the above?

The fact that time and energy spent developing the first-person perspective would be of little benefit to the game as a whole. Special first-person features, and enhancements to make first-person look or play better, would be lost in third-person.

David

[ScottK]

Not sure if this is something BTS needs to code or not...its fairly easy to play in this first person mode on your own...just limit yourself the applicable views (just view 1 for me). Though putting in a feature that disables all other views wouldn't seem that difficult, or time consuming...definately SOME work but maybe not as much as David surmises.

David does make a good point, though...this is SUPPOSED to be a 3rd person game. The fact that you can get a lot of enjoyment out of it by playing in 1st person view is just more icing on the cake. It takes some work getting used to, and some fortitude to resist pushing the 4 key, but well worth it i think.

ScottK

[pathfinder]

ScottK et al, I agree with ScottK on his last post.

I love the 1st person (#1 view) but would hate to be limite to it

It does give one a different perspective, eh?

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unca pathy will show ya the path,

if only he could find it himself!

[This message has been edited by pathfinder (edited 07-18-2000).]

[iggi]

How can you give orders to a unit to move around an obstacle if you can't move the mouse?

[Guest Kinch]

I like the idea and tried it with the demo way back when. I would only use it for small battles (firefights). However, it is intense and provides an advenue for smaller scenarios to be played and enjoyed. A nice quick patrol action in ICQ - I can see it. I can see split squads becoming more of an option in smaller battles played this way too. The only coding required would be to police email games so nobody cheats. Against the AI, just police yourself. I would support a one time overhead map view to simulate recon prior to the battle. I have a small scenario designed based on a map and text from the manual "German Squad Tactics in WW2". I picked it up in a military book store. The battle might work well in the "first person".

Email me offline and I will tell you why and send it to those interested.

- Kevin

[This message has been edited by Kinch (edited 07-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Kinch (edited 07-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Kinch (edited 07-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Kinch (edited 07-18-2000).]

[Epée]

(quote) "The control system is optimised for third-person - in first-person it is tricky and inaccurate. The graphics are optimised for third-person - to make them comparable quality to first-person games would (1) be a collossal waste of time, and (2) be totally impractical in terms of hardware requirements."

David,

there is no need to change the graphics to make them "comparable to a first-person game". We dont want BTS to code new graphics to make CM look like Quake. There is already a first person feature coded in the game, it is camera view #1. To make a game options that locks the game in this camera angle, IMHO, is something very easy to code.

(quote) "Moreover, first-person play takes a ridiculous amount of time - for a game which was already very time-consuming. It also makes battles very confusing, which may be realistic - but only from the individual soldiers' point-of-view. CM simulates an overview of the battlefield - you lose many of the best aspects of the game by playing first-person. It's a tactical game, not a shoot-em-up."

We dont want to force players to use first-person only. It would be an option for those who are willing to spend extra time. Others have already expressed their satisfaction in the same manner. I dont like to play with no FOW, I think that it takes away the tactical elements, and you lose many of the best aspects of the game. But I dont mind at all that the option is there, maybe there are those who like it. Just like the option we are proposing to BTS. Only "extra icing on the cake". If you dont like it, dont use it. Like no FOW.

Epée

[David Aitken]

> there is no need to change the graphics to make them "comparable to a first-person game".

My argument was also to counter the more ambitious suggestions, such as:

> I hope that they make enough money off this that they can improve the soldier animation and model resolution, however.

And:

> Allow views 3 and 4 if you purchase a "spotter plane" from the unit purchase list

However, I still think it would be somewhat 'unprofessional' for BTS to make an official modification to CM which would allow you to lock it in first-person. I say this because, again, it is essentially a third-person game, and first-person play should remain purely for those keen enough to persevere with its shortcomings.

As soon as BTS gave us a lock-in-first-person option, it would be tantamount to an endorsement of this mode of play, and then people would start wondering why it was so tricky to play in first-person. So then the pressure would grow on BTS to add first-person features, and I've already given my views about that.

First-person should remain unsupported, because any first-person feature such as a 'lock' would only be the thin end of the wedge. Play in first-person if you like, but you do so entirely at risk to your electronic chums in uniform.

David

[Guest Kinch]

David, your point is well taken on BTS

endorsing a view 1 only option. It's

their choice on how CM developes. If we keep

the thread going with pros and cons, BTS might just chime in with their opinion. I love to tinker, so this thread gets my interest. CM is much about LOS. That's why view 1 is there. By playing in view 1 only, the game becomes more up close and personal. But is it first person? I still control my force in total by specifically ordering each unit. Only my view of the field is limited. I need to piece the battlefield together from the parts obtained from the individual views. Tedious, but some find it interesting. I do not think the a policing system for email will be implimented unless there is an overwhelming out cry. The tools are already there, if you use the honor system. I would not support changing the game to emphasize view 1.

Anyone for an ICQ in view 1?

- Kevin

[dumbo]

After following this thread on playing the game in 1st person I designed a scenario specifically designed to play in that mode.

The scenario is called "Italian Morning"

It is available here

http://sites.netscape.net/rodvikh/Italian_Morning.cmb

or if you prefer zip files

http://sites.netscape.net/rodvikh/Italian_Morning.zip

You should regard your first attempt at playing the scenario as your "real" score. Playing with full FOW from 1st person in a scenario where you dont know whats coming makes you value your troops a whole lot more beleive me 8)

Playing in this mode wont be most peoples cup of tea but I have to say I love it.

Enjoy

_dumbo

Here is the breifing from the scenario.

------------IMPORTANT!---------

-----1st PERSON SCENARIO!------

This scenario is not designed to be played in the same manner as normal Combat Mission scenarios.

To play it players should setup the game as normal (using any view they desire). However as the last unit is setup the player should reduce the Feild of view down to the lowest setting (hit the down view arrow icon till you hit view 1). He should then TAB through units to give orders and play the game.

During the game players should stick to the lowest view and TAB perspective whenever possible however it is quite often needed to move the camera around on the horizontal plane to give movement orders through trees etc. this is entirely permissible.

There is ONE instance where it is allowed to use camera view 2 and that is when infantry are located in the second story of a tall house. TAB to the units view then change to camera view 2. You should then nudge forward using the arrow keys until the house wall dissapears and you can see the outside terrain. After you have finished observing then return to view 1 (lowest) as normal.

Playing in this perspective takes time but is rewarding, its like playing a brand new game. Obviously its possible at any time to "cheat" and change the camera view, I urge you to resist the temptation. If you save your movies each turn you can watch them at the end and you will be utterly amazed at how different the battle looks from your birdseye view.

The scenario uses very small forces which you will appreciate once you start playing. The scenario is laughably easy to win in 3rd person mode but of high difficulty in 1st person. You may find yourself concerned more for the lives of your men than the objectives on the map, I know I did.

Thanks to ScottK and the other CM board freaks for the idea.

_dumbo

----------Scenario Overview---------

Its "Morning" In europe in Churchills words, as D-Day gets underway and the long night of Nazi occupation begins to fade. However not all the action takes place in France. At the same time D-Day is launched several units along the Italian front are ordered to advance where possible, harrassing and keeping German units pinned down. This scenario details a probe by British Troops towards a German held village.

The scenario should be played as the British, playing the Germans will be not only be difficult but less rewarding as the full impact of advancing with limited views is diminished.

[Mark IV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dumbo:

I designed a scenario specifically designed to play in that mode.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That sounds cool and I'll try it.

I don't see the harm in asking (not demanding!) where CM can go from here.

There is probably more here already than I can fully take advantage of (with all the new scenarios, the QBs, etc.) for the rest of summer and beyond. No one who's been here any length of time is looking for a first-person shooter, but time marches on and it's fun to kick around ideas.

Software development in general, and CM in particular, are not democratic exercises, and if BTS thinks we're full of egesta, they'll either say so or just ignore this thread. Fine with me. It was just fun to wrap my tiny brain around for a minute or two.

But if they're interested, the modeling of the trigger pull on my K98 is too light for factory standards, and the failure to factor the entrenching tool as a portion of the squad's defensive capability is UNFORGIVABLE. Spoils everything for me.

[Midnight Warrior]

The idea of a level 1 only game (at least for me) is NOT to convert the current 3rd person game into a 1st person shooter game! Rather, it is to enhance the realism of the present game system. This is combat in the 1940's not the 21st century so the command & control whether you are Pvt, Sgt, Lt, Capt, or Maj all you have is your own eyes and hear with your own ears. At best you may have a radio and/or a paper map.

Currently the tempo of combat is INHO way to high. By tempo I mean not the speed in which units can move physically, but rather how fast they can observe their environment, orient themselves to it, decide on a course of action, and act. With the God's eye view of the battle and unlimited time to observe, orient, decide, & act the result is a fast tempo. The level 1 only view would slow down the tempo of operations by degrading the players ability to observe and orient himself. This wouldl consequently slow down his decison making time which in turn will slow down the rate of carry out actions.

The other advantage of level only 1 play is that it can cause the player to practice more realistic tactics and proceedures. For instance basic map reading & navigation skills becomes a challenge at level 1 where not worth bothering with at all level play.

Finally, there surely will be a never ending number of potential games enhancement that would support level 1 only play (just as is the case for all level play). I suspect though that this is largely a "have your cake and eat it too" condition in that most of the level 1 only play enhances would benefit all level play as well. And even if BTS never implements any of the level 1 only enhancements, it is still fun to dream.

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March To The Sound Of The Guns

[ScottK]

<But if they're interested, the modeling of the trigger pull on my K98 is too light for factory standards, and the failure to factor the entrenching tool as a portion of the squad's defensive capability is UNFORGIVABLE. Spoils everything for me.>

I know you are just being funny here Mark IV, but I would just like to point out that no one here (i think) is suggesting that this game become or include features that make it a first person shooter. I think my topic title is a little misleading...playing CM in level 1 mode does NOT make it a first person shooter. It only makes the challenge of leading your troops, moving them to optimal positions, and keeping track of enemy units and the geography a little more difficult and a lot more exciting.

It makes CM a different game, but in no way, no how, does it make it like Quake...and please believe me I don't want it to be. Those games bore me (well, after I get over the YEEHAH factor).

I find "Level 1 Play" a nice diversion from regular play, and it spices up your games vs. the AI. It's my opinion that the level 1 view can be used for more than watching your 150mm artillery fall on the enemy from THEIR perspective (though that is of course fun)

Dumbo...just started playing your scenario...up to turn 15 and it's great fun! Anyone who hasn't tried playing "Level 1 Play" and is interested in giving it a shot should definately use this scenario as your starting point. (I hope there are no surprises waiting for me in the remaining turns. My men, or is it just me, have had enough!)

ScottK

[Mark IV]

ScottK: Perhaps I missed the mark. I was satirizing the fear that CM would somehow be distracted into a 1st person shooter, by providing a few simple props for Level 1-only play.

I liked your concept and I am fine with it even if BTS never lifts a finger to support it. I thought it might make a cool PBEM option, but I would be just as happy with a shiny pebble. Please disregard. The idea got a little ahead of itself.

[ScottK]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV:

ScottK: Perhaps I missed the mark. I was satirizing the fear that CM would somehow be distracted into a 1st person shooter, by providing a few simple props for Level 1-only play.

I liked your concept and I am fine with it even if BTS never lifts a finger to support it. I thought it might make a cool PBEM option, but I would be just as happy with a shiny pebble. Please disregard. The idea got a little ahead of itself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, was just using your satiric jab as a launching pad to make a point. Guess I'm feeling guilty for using the term "first person" to describe this cool way of playing. And I agree with you, BTS could not change a thing with this game and I would think that I ripped them off by only paying $49.