109 Gustav Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 Does CM include the MG 34 machine gun, or just the '42? I believe both these weapons were used on the western front, and they were quite different, although used in similar ways. The MG 34 was mounted on both tripods and bipods for infantry support and as a lmg. Main difference with the 42 was the 34 fed off a clip. I posted this once before, but I goofed and called it the MG 38, so I had to ask again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 I thought this was answered pretty well in the last thread The MG34 was not used as a squad based multi-purpose MG by 1944. The MG42 was it. BTW, the assault drum that was used on the MG34 could also be used on the MG42 IIRC. In any case, the drum was not widely used as it unbalanced the gun and was a bitch to unjam apparently. And 50 rounds goes VERY quckly The main differences (in CM terms) between the two guns is the rate of fire. In real world terms the MG42 cost a lot less to manufacture, was easier to change the barrel, was more robust, and could be made more quickly. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 IIRC the MG 34 is just for vehicles and the MG 42 is for troops. ------------------ Visit my webpage! http://cm4mac.tripod.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 IIRC the MG 34 is just for vehicles and the MG 42 is for troops. ------------------ Visit my webpage! http://cm4mac.tripod.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 > The MG34 was not used as a squad based > multi-purpose MG by 1944. I saw this before, and could be very wrong (no sources to check at work ya-know) but... I was always under the impression that the MG34 was used up almost to the end of the war on both fronts by second line units (Ost battalions, etc.) Was this not the case? Guess I will have to check a few books when I get home. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colin: IIRC the MG 34 is just for vehicles and the MG 42 is for troops. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> (POP QUIZ)Anyone know why? Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 The reason why MG42 is for troops is the shape of the MG barrel guard. The MG42 has a square cooling grid around the barrel. It seems that it was difficult to make that fit into the ball shape mount of German AFVs, it was designed for the MG34 (which used a round barrel guard). MikeT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 Pretty good answer, any others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Fat Guy Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 Lots of 34's were still in ground use on the west front in 1944. They were even using the MG 15 (aircraft machine gun) in ground fighting. I have see pictures of huge piles of 34's and a few 15's with a few 42's thrown in after the fighting in Normandy and Arnhem. The drums (dual drums for the mg 34) were used all the time. I have used them and they are a bite to handle, load and reload. Plain belts are much better. I have also found that the 42 is much more reliable in the field. The 34 has lots of problems with broken firing pins. It is not so bad to change the barrel in a 34 but the 42 is much easier. It is very true that the mg 34 was mostly a vehicle mounted machine gun after 1943, but lots of them were around on the West Front in both light and heavy roles. The ball mount was a special armored barrel mg 34 for most tanks. The half tracks could take either a 34 or a 42 for the most part. Other machine guns used in large numbers on the west front included French machine guns in Atlantic Wall forts and Czech machine guns in both light and heavy roles in static divisions. The Luftwaffe Field Division (15th) that fought at Normandy used large numbers of 34's and 15's. I'll get my sources lined up for this and get back to you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 Rule number one about the Germans... They used *EVERYTHING* they had until it broke. Even the Pak38 was still in service in rear line units and fixed defenses (we included it in CM). So I guess I should have been more careful with my statement as I take this for granted. Sure, there were MG34s still in service all the way until the war ended. Why would they pull a perfectly good weapon out of service until they had a replacement? However, by mid 1944 until the end of the war they were uncommon. We do not have the luxury of being able to have every small arm that a nation fielded simulated as each different mix of weapons requires a unique squad/team type. We already have more than enough, so that is why you won't see things like the MG34. You will also not see weapons that were, from CM's perspective, nearly identical like the Thompson and the Grease Gun. And don't even get me started with all the German's captured stock We could have an entire game built around nothing but that crap Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 Well my best guess is that the MG34 allowed the barrel to be changed out through the back of the weapon. The MG42 had the barrel changed out the side. So if even if there was a MG42 ball mount, you would have to retract the whole weapon back inside to change the barrel. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 Lewis, I believe you are correct. Also, I would think the higher RoF of the MG42 would have caused its problem with excess heat all the more tough to deal with mounted in a AFV. Although a decent portion of the barrel would be exposed, a fair bit of it would be encased in the ball and sicking inside the vehicle. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Fat Guy Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 The MG 34's body and barrel swing 90 degrees to change the barrel. You swing the body and pull the barrel out the back of the sleeve. It works great but not as easy as the four motion action of the 42. The aid gunner can change the barrel much easier on the 42. How many teams are there in the full version of CM? Why not give vehicle crews or recon guys grease guns? To me the varied weapons of teams in Close Combat make the game interesting. I also understand what is possible in the time you all have to make this game a success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 Tons of teams and squads I think we have something like 43 Squad types alone. AFV weapons have been covered a few times, quite recently in fact. If you have 5 seconds to bail out of your hit tank, would you fumble with retaining straps and ammo pouches, or would you just get the heck out of there? SMGs were for local defense and security in non-CM style combat (i.e. intense front line duty). The difference between a Grease Gun and a Thompson at CMs scale means nothing. Close Combat also took liberties with propper TO&E more than I care to elaborate on. The problem is that if we gave a squad, say 1 Grease Gun instead of a Thompson, we would have to make an entire Squad type just to have a different label in the details screen. If you start messing with established TO&E like this you could argue for probably two or three dozen different squad types to accomodate insignificant (game terms) changes. Just not worth it. The real world performance of the Grease Gun and Thompson is so close as to be negligable in game terms. The benefits of the Grease Gun over the Thompson were many, but all are outside of CM's scope. Don't worry, CM has *plenty* of varried weapons. It just doesn't pretend (as CC did) that there are differences between them worthy of simulating. I am a fan of CC2, but it is more than a bit misleading as to how detailed it actually is. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest -panzershreck- Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 excuse me but what does IIRC mean? sorry for waisting peoples time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s bakker Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 This was also posted the previous week but i couldn't find the specific thread so; AFAIK As far as I know AFK Away From Keyboard ATK At the Keyboard BAK Back At Keyboard BBL Be Back Later BFN or B4N Bye For Now BRB Be Right Back BTW By The Way FWIW For What It's Worth GMTA Great Minds Think Alike IIRC If I remember correctly IMHO In My Humble Opinion IRL In Real Life LOL Laughing Out Loud LTNS Long Time No See TTFN Ta-Ta For Now! TTYL Talk To You Later ROFL Rolling On the Floor Laughing ROTF Rolling On The Floor (variation of above) WB Welcome Back WTG Way To Go! OIC Oh I See BRT Be Right There L8R Later CYA See Ya SWL Squeals With Laughter GTTL Gone To The Loo POS Parents Over Shoulder SSTM Smiling smugly to myself TRDF Tears rolling down my face GTGN Got To Go Now CON Call Of Nature TXL Thanx Loads GLB4UGH Get Lost Before You Get Hurt WYBMADIITY Will You Buy Me A Drink If I Tell You? SS ><)))"> Something Smells Fishy WI With Irony SI Sarcasm Intended OOO Out Of Order IASA I Am So Annoyed NOMDB Not Over My Dead Body YR Yeah Right! SOMY? Sick Of Me Yet? ROE Raising One Eyebrow There you go. And i love waisting time. Grtz S Bakker ------------------ Visit my CM site! The bunker: http://bunker.panzershark.com Another proud member of the Panzershark webring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 Thanks Steve(a request for consideration please). I suspected it was the exponential increase in the number of units required for CM that dictated that the MG34 not be included, and I appreciate and accept this entirely. But let me give a little bit of personal background...I am a gamer that has a severe distaste for the 'Uber-Kraut' mythos in all its manifestations. IMO, it tends to manifest itself most severely in scenario after scenario that are created in a most non-historical manner. Such as: scenarios in which the German forces are 99% armed with Panthers and Tigers and NOT Stugs or PzIVs as was the historical case (most of the time); or scenarios in which the size of the German armored forces are almost always equal to the allied armored forces (an occurrence that was, I am sure you are well aware, VERY rare). Just to be crystal clear, I am not saying that I see BTS falling victim to this 'Uber-Kraut' plague. However, you can not deny that it exists and once CM is released, I would bet that for each PzIV or Stug in a user made scenario, you will see 5 Panthers (for example). And it is IMO that not including the MG34 just exacerbates the issue, especially since several of the formations in Normandy in June '44 were second-line formations that (surely) still had a majority of their MGs as MG34s and not MG42s. Now, my request: considering that the MG34 must SURELY be included in CMII (the Russian Front). Would it be possible to at least consider (at a later date of course) patching CM to include these additional weapons and formations? ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hunt52 Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 Maybe to avoid the 8 million types of squads thing you could do this: When you pick a german squad the game engine randomly assigns weapons to it. Depending on the time and quality of the unit it may get TOE/OOB equipment or it may have some other random weapons (34/42) or MP40s instead of MP44s or a Kar98k instead of a MP40. Don't know about the effect of MG34 vs MG42 but this randomness would be cool. Definitely for CM2 not CM1. (BTW - I think the way it's done is fine. But if you really want to implement this randomness could work well.) - Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 Scott, No-one can control user-made scenarios and it'd be foolish to try but I guarantee you that the scenarios which ship with CM aren't really Panzer-heavy. Sure there are a few pitting Pershings against Tiger IIs etc but there are a lot of infantry-based scenarios and at least two in which the German player has to use Hotckiss light tanks against Shermans etc . In fact my 2nd favourite scenario in the game features 2 companies of SS Panzergrenadiers defending against 9 Shermans and 4 companies of UK troops in the Bocage. It's a real slaughterfest and once the Gold demo comes out I'll post an AAR of a PBEM I had of that battle. ( it is VERY exciting ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott Clinton: (a request for consideration please). But let me give a little bit of personal background...I am a gamer that has a severe distaste for the 'Uber-Kraut' mythos in all its manifestations. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hey Scott I dont mean to mess with Texas but is the derogatory word 'Kraut' needed? You wouldnt post on a sports board "I have a distaste for the super-nigger syndrome" now would you? By the way, The panther was becoming the most common German tank in 1944. In the Battle of the Bulge it was more common than the MKIV. The Tigers were always rare, not so with the Panther. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn: Scott, In fact my 2nd favourite scenario in the game features 2 companies of SS Panzergrenadiers defending against 9 Shermans and 4 companies of UK troops in the Bocage. It's a real slaughterfest and once the Gold demo comes out I'll post an AAR of a PBEM I had of that battle. ( it is VERY exciting )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hey lets play that one for our grudge match. You be the Krauts!!! Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 No. It wouldn't be fair to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamo Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 OK, I'm not slamming USERNAME, but I find it rather amusing that he lambasted Scott for using the term "Kraut" only to use it himself in the very next post...I HOPE this was an intentional faux pax and that Username didn't really put his foot that far into his own mouth... Zamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfe Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn: In fact my 2nd favourite scenario in the game features 2 companies of SS Panzergrenadiers defending against 9 Shermans and 4 companies of UK troops in the Bocage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Beta testers: PLEEEEEASE don't post info on the specific makeup of scenarios in the Gold Demo or the finished game. Some of us prefer to be surprised. Thank you. - Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 Hehehe Zamo! I noticed that too! Even if it's an accident I wouldn't admit to it if I were him! Wasn't this thread about MG 34's? ------------------ Visit my webpage! http://cm4mac.tripod.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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