Omaha....again...probably not

[PanzerShark]

I understand that creating a beachassault in CM is hard to create (as ya said, lotsa extra programming and models needed). I don't even think, like you guys, that this extra time needed to create this scenario is actually worth it. But i can't really understand why everybody who answered my questions actually think a beachassault sucks? I don't wanna be a pain, but take one great turn-based strategy game, let's call it "Western Front", and take a developer, let's call it Talonsoft. Mix the 2 and what do ya get? A great beachassault-scenario, which was real fun to play, despite many losses when played as Allies...but is was FUN.

Also, if the movie "Saving private Ryan" rings a bell......what was the best part of the movie? The Tiger being blown up by the Mustang? The mg42 in the Meadow? No my friends, it was the the assault at the start of the movie, "But PanzerShark...didn't there die lotsa people wave after wave?" "Yes they did, but it was the best part wasn't it?".

I, as already stated, know it's lotsa work to create this scenario and giving enough (not too many) units to each site is a hard task, But don't gimme the "it's not fun"-excuse since lotsa people died. Lotsa people died in the "Battle of Britain", wave after wave of planes crashed, exploded, caught fire. But that didn't stop developers to create games like: Jane's WW2 Fighters, European Air War and so on.

Rest my case (it's not meant as an attack or anything, it's just that the entire "mowing down-wave after wave-discussion" got me 4 e-mails so far from people saying i'm a psycho since i like to kill people. Calm down chickens (using a anonymous mailer) we won't speak German suddenly if ya lose the game....cause it's a game...geddit....GAME)

[Guest Lokesa]

I dont think they meant it's not fun because of the death toll, lots of people are gonna die regardless of the scenario, I think they meant it would get boring. As the defender you'd have fortifications and you'd just sit there mowing down wave after wave, as the attacker you have a lot of troops, horrible terrain and no room for tactical manouvering, once again watching waves of men getting pasted only this time they'd be yours.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Sorry that some people got a little carried away and accused you of being a death monger. I would ask that people not email posters with flames. Best to discuss things here out in the open and without flaming. Rereading my post, I can see that someone could have even implied that I thought you were a "sicko" too, but I don't think that of you. You just misunderstood why beach landings aren't a good idea for Combat Mission. So time to clear things up...

At CM's scale of simulation a beach assault would be nothing but death. No tactics, no strategy, just death. 30-40min scenarios, that is what we are talking about in CM, not the beginning of a week's long assault that you get to carry out. If CM simulated days, weeks, or months there would be a strong case for including beach landings. But not for Combat Mission.

You can only command a little more than a battalion. Even if the Germans only get a company and some heavy weapons... they would wipe out nearly everybody in the short timeframe of a CM scenario. Whoever wasn't killed or incapacitated would be pinned, broken, or panicked. Now picture this in game terms -> 40 turns of doing nothing but watching guys get creamed. No tactical or strategic genius possible for either side. Germans just shoot until they are out of ammo. Allies just die, get pinned, or otherwise do nothing significant. And even if a few bloody squads manage to get off the beach, then what? Take out a few German squads? Not a very big reward for spending about 3 hours of game time getting the crap beaten out of you if you are the Allied player. And the German player would have probably gotten tired and walked away from the game long before then, letting his units auto target instead. In fact, we could probably have ZERO AI, other than the targeting stuff, for the German player and they would STILL WIN. It is that pointless.

I remember reading a story from a German MG gunner in a small pillbox on one of the beaches (wasn't Omaha). He went through several thousand rounds of ammo. He thought that he killed hundreds. One MG gunner, probably 10 minutes of combat, wiped out what in CM's terms would be about 1/5 of the Allied landing force. He said the only reason he stopped was because he ran out of normal ammo and was left shooting pure tracers. This attracted too much attention from offshore and his bunker was clobbered.

The only person that would enjoy such a scenario (and I am not saying that you are such a person) is someone who is a little sick in the head. Why? Because it will just be a very, very pointless slaughterfest. I say pointless because the game's scope isn't large enough to give such bloodshed any tactical or strategic meaning.

So combine this with the enormous programming and art needs and you will see why we aren't going to have beach landings. It just isn't a good idea for Combat Mission.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 05-21-99).]

[Guest BigAlMoho]

Absolutely eloquent.

[PanzerShark]

Thx guys for replying. I understand that it's no fun in CM to have a Beachassault. I just got a bit carried away because of the mails.

One lousy beachassault doesn't create a great game. And since CM looks great, sounds absolutely top and could be the game wargamers have been waiting for, i'm not going to let my descision, wether to buy the game or not, depend on this beachassault. No sir, i'm just going to wait for the new pics and, when i like what i see, preorder the game. (i actually don't have to wait for the pics since i'm planning to buy the game already, but it just makes this post more dramatic )

Everybody thx again for replyig, and Big Time good luck in creating CM.

PanzerShark

[Pixman]

Frontal assaults have always been my least favorite battle type. They invariably turn into boring, repetitive, non-creative slugfests that cannot hold my attention for the entire first playing -- and forget replayability. The beach assault is the mother of all such battles. The most interesting elements of the Normandy invasion are the Airborne drops and the work of the French partisans.

I do not care if BTS never creates a beach assault capability. The opportunity cost of what they could have been applying their considerable talents to (North Africa, Airborne Assault of Crete, Sicily and Italy, etc.) instead would just get me down.

[Cpt B M Deleted]

I can't wait to make my scenario on the DYO.

[Compassion]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PanzerShark:

One lousy beachassault doesn't create a great game. And since CM looks great, sounds absolutely top and could be the game wargamers have been waiting for, i'm not going to let my descision, wether to buy the game or not, depend on this beachassault. No sir, i'm just going to wait for the new pics and, when i like what i see, preorder the game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think that a beach assault in itself is such a bad idea, but an assault the size of Omaha Beach is not realistic for the game scale... But something like the US crossing at Nijmegen or later some of the Soviet crossings (for CM2) should be doable...

[Guest MantaRay]

I have to say that i wish they were in the game. Not because I truly think this game sucks w/o it, but because that was a big part of Overlord, and I wouldn't get bored playing it. Besides, Omaha was the most famous Ranger action in history!

I am sure that someone will make a beach tile as a mod, so eventually it will be in anyway.

Ray

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When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one."

MantaRays 5 Pages

Hardcore Gamers Daily

[PanzerShark]

Aaah c'mon guys, replying to a post i made more then a YEAR ago? That is just sick (or ultimate boredom )

[Screaming Demon]

You havent preordered (actually i should say ordered now) yet? Why the heck not?

To make a historicaly correct D-Day beach landing would be impossible with CM I reckon.

[PanzerShark]

Screaming Demon, i pre-ordered the same day i posted the original message or somewhere close. Check the date of the original post, hence my reply from an hour ago.

**edited**

just some typo-bashing.

**done**

[This message has been edited by PanzerShark (edited 06-15-2000).]

[Screaming Demon]

Oh, Im dumb.

[Guest Germanboy]

Hmm, I guess Cpt. Manieri deserves a Cpt. Manieri award for dredging this one back from Hades, and also for his 'need' to know the assault boat capacity. They sure treat them leniently in schools these days.

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Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

[Beowulf]

I have to agree that landings would be interesting, but higher up in the operational sense. Always enjoyed the "what if" scenarios. Amphib. landings were such a leap of faith, right spot? intel correct?

But I agree that if the scale is too tight it would be no fun. You need room to flank if you've reached a impass.

[Los]

Guys relax, I have designed a beach assault, it's been beta tested by the team, it's fun, it's not a major slaughter. (Well unless you act like you are in holllywood). It's challenging and if it's not on the cd (I don't think it is) you will have a link posted to it as soon as I'm assured that people are receiving the actual game. There were a few minor workarounds required due to lack of a few unit types and terrain types but imagination and the robust scenario design engine from CM solved those with little heartache.

I've said this before, there is virtually nothing you cannot accomplish with the CM scenario editor without a little imagination and an understanding of the program.

Cheers to all.

H-minus...

Los

[kipanderson]

Hi,

for once I don't quite agree with Steve that beach assaults would be pointless. I am more than happy with what is coming in the CD, infact I am still in shock it all sounds so good. However in the perfect world I could imagine putting together a beach assault scenario that would be interesting for both sides. However if Steve claims it would not be worth the time to put such a feature in CM I am more than happy to take his word for it, an Eastern Front version of CM interests me far more.

All the best,

Kip.

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[This message has been edited by kipanderson (edited 06-15-2000).]

[Maximus]

Honestly, I don't think it would be too hard designing an Omaha Beach scenario. You could use the field tile that's in VoT for the sand. Then make some small cliffs with some "passable" slopes. Give the Allies some naval support. Put several MG and 88 bunkers up on the hills. It's very doable really. And with my tactics, I think I could easily get most of my men up past the beach easily. They're supposed to be Rangers, right, so they should have plenty experience and even make some fanatical. I'll try my skills on creating one myself.

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Finally........Maximus...has come back.....to the Forum!!!

[Murx]

Beachheads and the like in CM make only sense when they are on interesting terrain and reasonable forces on both sides. No reason to play a head-on attack over several hundred meters of plain beach. But as LOS wrote, one can think of 'interesting' assaults with realistic chances and tactical maneuvering on both sides (You are THE lucky commander of a force encountering a completely undermanned and armed part of the beach with rough terrain that's not plain - as the German commander you haven't much fortifications but then your remaining forces are movable and can strike at your command

Hopefully this makes sense

murx

[Törni]

To my opinion lack of river/water obstacle crossing is shortcoming. For example in the eastern front Finnish and German troops had

to cross rivers under enemy fire.

And what comes to slaughtering; isn't Kursk or Stalingrad going to be pointless slaugter in the strongest possible meaning of the word? And I bet we will be seeing some such scenarios in CM2... War is about killing.

[Mark IV]

Törni, I don't know if you read the whole thread, but that issue was disposed of 15 months ago.

There are water-crossing scenarios with assault boats in the released version of CM, now. So, no issue there. The Russians and Finnish were not represented well at Operation Overlord so their amphibious battles will have to wait for CM2.

The "beach landing is a slaughter" debate is not about excessive death (?), but about the fact that it would not be very fun to play because it would be one-sided. Some people think it would be. Try one of their scenarios.

[Törni]

Sorry did not read the begining part. Surely no point in running against MG bunkers without support. But you do not have to stick to Omaha. Well elsewhere the defenders were blasted to oblivion with airstrikes and naval guns... so there you go.

[PanzerShark]

Stop digging up my old (might i say "ancient ) posts. They make me feel like an utter newbie

[Sledgehammer]

I just posted a similar message in the "sand" thread, but here is even more appropos.

Beach assaults can be hella fun, at least as the attacker, if the scenario is decently designed and the battlefield is scaled properly. I am now tweaking a scenario based loosely (or as closely as it can be done given CM's present unit, terrain and vehicle options) on the 1st Marines' assault on Beach White 1, Peleliu, 1944. The U.S. assaults into a fortified ridge against point blank flanking fire. The objective is to break through and seize an objective line along a road 300 yards in from the beach. I've play tested it from both sides.

I have never had more fun as the attacker playing against the AI.

Yes, casualties on both sides can be very high. Historically, they were horrific. That's war. But I've found few game experiences more immersive than locking your view at ground level to an infantry unit advancing across a beach (or, in CM, a slightly undulating meadow) under intensive heavy artillery, mortar and MG fire, and finally reaching cover without breaking on second 54. (Or, for that matter, sitting atop a crater-pocked ridge under heavy 8" gun fire trying to repel an assault.)

As for the "no strategy or tactics" bunk, it's just B.S. Fire and movement has never been more important. Keeping your arty spotters alive and functional for the 2-3 minutes it takes to bring suppressive naval gunfire on enemy fortifications takes very imaginative and painstakingly careful positioning. Exploiting the breakthrough once it occurs takes no less savvy than penetrating any other defense in depth.

I'll upload my scenario somewhere in a couple days, and you guys can decide for yourselves. Some will like it, some won't. That doesn't mean it isn't worth doing.

Sledgehammer

[Törni]

Different situations need different tactical solutions. And there surely will be heavy casualties crossing that open ground.