Crews of tanks, bunkers, mortars etc

[ntg84]

I was playing a game where a Veteran British Airborne sqaud was 8m away from a bunker, they attacked it, knocked it out. Great. But than the crew runs out of the bunker. The Brits mow them down and no more crew. Now if I was the crew I'd be first, pretty shocked from getting knocked out. Than with a british sqaud 8m away, I wouldn't run. I'd surrender. Same thing if a sqaud knocks out a tank at 10-20m. Why would the crew run from 9 guys with rifles and machine guns? Seems like more crews should surrender when close to full sqauds. Atleast a Veteran or Crack squad should be smart enough to make a logical choice.

[Guest Rob/1]

Good pont but the crews are brocken so they don't realy care.

[ntg84]

Regardless if they are broken, they should still have enough sense.

[Guest Madmatt]

"...should be smart enough to make a logical choice."

A piercing shriek surrounds you and suddenly your whole world is smoke, fire and the screams of your friend beside you as he tries to hold his intestines in. You can't see, hear or even understand what has just happened to you but all you know is that if you stay where you are you will be burned alive.

In a situation like that, you expect logic?

If anything I think tank crews (at least) should be so disrupted as to be useless for the WHOLE game, but that is just my personal opinion.

Also, perhaps the squad you just machinegunned and direct fired HE into 30 seconds before isn't all that willing to take you prisoner. War... It's a dirty dirty thing and there isn't much room for logic...

Madmatt

[ntg84]

I guess I didn't make clear, I was talking about full crews, ones where their vehicle didn't get completley destroyed. I have crews that make it out with all members in one piece. I think those people, who don't get completley meesed up still have the ability to make logical decsions, especailly a veteran crew. Yes one member who made it out of a burning tank shouldn't be able to think and reason too well. But not having been in combat I can't really speak on how man thinks or behaves under moments of heavy stress.

[DraGoon]

>>In a situation like that, you expect logic?

If anything I think tank crews (at least) should be so disrupted as to be useless for the WHOLE game, but that is just my personal opinion.

Also, perhaps the squad you just machinegunned and direct fired HE into 30 seconds before isn't all that willing to take you prisoner. War... It's a dirty dirty thing and there isn't much room for logic...<<

Horlicks !!

You are not talking about everyday people who sit at computers here. You are talking about trained tank crews.

There is, and was, a crew drill for abandoning the vehicle, this involves assisting/evacuating the injured, grabbing vital kit and removing the commanders MG (if fitted) so that the crew has a modicum of self defence capability. Each crewman has his responsibilities, another covers them if he is unable.

Many commander's MGs on AFVs have/had a quick release system for just this eventuality.

There are numerous accounts of crews going on to fight after their vehicle has been knocked out. A crew from the 13/18th Hussars even "borrowed" a PIAT from a nearby infantry unit and set off after the Armd Car that had knocked them out. Others have defended their vehicle, from the ground, until recovery arrived.

Troop Leaders are expected to leave their own tank, if damaged, and take over their Troop Cpl's, this is and was constantly practiced.

There are also a number of accounts, from both sides, of crews jumping out to fasten tow lines to their damaged comrades vehicles to tow them out of the line of fire.

I can appreciate design decisions made to prevent gamey tactics, it would indeed be the norm for the crew to seek cover away from the vehicle and assess an evasive option, but they could defend themselves if need be.

Of course if the vehicle catastrophically expodes none of the above applies as no crew gets out. = Occupational Hazard.

Sorry 'bout the length of this but I felt a point needed to be made.

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The Enemy of the Tank is the Tank of the Enemy, ...or some grunt Battalion Commander who wants to use you as a Troop of mobile pillboxes.

[SprayFire]

As a former M1A1 trained crew member I have to agree with DraGoon. We spent time practicing getting out of a diasbled vehicle intact. Including all the thing he mentioned plus contributing to the destruction of our vehicle if the tactical situation required it. We were expected to escape and evade to the best of our ability (funny we never had much training on that aspect, I always figured I use the old thumb) Try getting a wounded driver out of an M1 without turret power, sssheesh you really gotta crank that thing around.

[Guest Seimerst]

I am with Madmatt on this one. Given that most games are 30 minutes or less of real time, any crew of any weapon/vehicle that has to un*ss and run to cover is really combat ineffective. Yes, they should and do defend themselves with sidearms when attacked. For my way of thinking there are two major conditions:

a. A crew who suffered no casualties from the event that destoyed its weapon/vehicle. They are feeling so very lucky to be alive in the first minutes after counting noses to see if everyone got away. They are ready to hoof it back to the rear and wait for another assignment. But given the situation around them, they just may sit and defend themselves. But I don't see them going "berserk" and charging the enemy. Not that it didn't happen. I suppose you could code a certain small percentage chance that it could happen.

b. The crew suffered casualties in getting out/away. Different story. Survival is their main thought and should be considered to definately be combat ineffective. I think the CM models this very accurately.

[Blackhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt:

In a situation like that, you expect logic?

If anything I think tank crews (at least) should be so disrupted as to be useless for the WHOLE game, but that is just my personal opinion.

Also, perhaps the squad you just machinegunned and direct fired HE into 30 seconds before isn't all that willing to take you prisoner. War... It's a dirty dirty thing and there isn't much room for logic...

Madmatt<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I completely agree with you. I think crews that bail out should do so in a broken status. Trust me, when you bail from a destroyed vehicle, it is not like the nice clean training environment where you have time to saunter over and grab the loaders 240 or to grab the rifle. Instead, it is mayhem times 100. It is dealing with multiple injuries, concussions, and trauma. You literally bail out with whatever you are wearing at the time, and your sole mission is to care for your wounded and to evac to a safe location so you can fight another day.

That lesson was really reinforced while watching Suicide Missions last night.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DraGoon:

There are numerous accounts of crews going on to fight after their vehicle has been knocked out. A crew from the 13/18th Hussars even "borrowed" a PIAT from a nearby infantry unit and set off after the Armd Car that had knocked them out. Others have defended their vehicle, from the ground, until recovery arrived.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And there are thousands of unaccounted instances where the crew just made it back, considering themselves lucky to be alive. But unlike the heroics, these are not mentioned by anyone in the books. I have read quite a bit about UK armour in the ETO, and there are extremely few instances where the crew decided to go for a MM after bailing.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-19-2000).]

[DraGoon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

And there are thousands of unaccounted instances where the crew just made it back, considering themselves lucky to be alive. But unlike the heroics, these are not mentioned by anyone in the books. I have read quite a bit about UK armour in the ETO, and there are extremely few instances where the crew decided to go for a MM after bailing.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi

I am not quoting, merely, from books. During 1973-75, while stationed at Bovington, I completed a dissertation on the history of the Royal Armoured Corps (RAC) and the development of the tank. As a member of the RAC I had access to Regimental histories and war diaries that covered the period and had access to many of the actual vehicles in the Tank Museum.

Having served over 18 years in the RAC and being a (very) amateur historian I have had the fortunate opportunity to speak to many association veterans who were actually there, some of whom survived having their vehicle knocked out from under them.

The point made by Seimerst is very valid, there is a clear distinction between abandoning your vehicle because it is no longer fightable, (immobilised, knocked out but in one piece), and escaping by the skin, of your teeth just before it brews up.

I am at present designing a range of scenarios/operations based on the exploits of 4th Armoured Brigade, from Sword Beach until meeting the Russians at Wismar on the Baltic, in one of these the Sqn 2i/c of B Squadron, The Royal Scots Greys, takes command of elements of the Squadron after having his Sherman violently blown out from under him.

I believe that the incidence of catastrophic destruction versus disablement is well represented in CM. Far fewer vehicles exploded instantly, when hit, than popular opinion would have us believe. That a TV programme entitled "Suicide Missions" should show a large number of vehicles exploding is no surprise. Sensationalism and Media go hand in hand.

I have no intention of starting a polarised argument here, I merely wanted to set the record straight as to whether a crew could be expected to behave logically after abandoning their vehicle.

BTW Germanboy: Do you fancy hosting these Battles/Operations when they are ready

Blackhorse, I assume from your nickname and location that you are 1st Cav? I took part in an FTX in Germany with elements of 1st Cav, in the Eighties I think. As a member of a Cavalry Regiment with a fine tradition we had many memorable moments with your folks, but had 'disagreements' as to whether black horses or greys were better.

[This message has been edited by DraGoon (edited 12-19-2000).]

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DraGoon:

Hi

I am not quoting, merely, from books. During 1973-75, while stationed at Bovington, I completed a dissertation on the history of the Royal Armoured Corps (RAC) and the development of the tank. As a member of the RAC I had access to Regimental histories and war diaries that covered the period and had access to many of the actual vehicles in the Tank Museum.

Having served over 18 years in the RAC and being a (very) amateur historian I have had the fortunate opportunity to speak to many association veterans who were actually there, some of whom survived having their vehicle knocked out from under them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dragoon, nothing like first-hand research to beat reading. I happily concede the point to someone with superior knowledge on the topic. And I envy you for being able to do that research and work at Bovington. A great place. I feel that nothing beats qualitative research if you want to get to the heart of a matter.

I am surprised these heroics do not get mentioned more often in the stuff I have read. I knew that the standard procedure for a troop leader was to take over another tank if he lost his own, and that would be something difficult to model in CM (don't know about the German system, but would expect it to be similar) if there was a command system for vehicles. Which I guess may be needed in CM2.

And I think that we would be very happy to host the scenarios once they are done. Things have been slow in developing new scenarios for us recently. Pre-christmas rush, I hope to get more active in January.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-19-2000).]

[Chupacabra]

I actually think that the range of crew reactions in CM is quite broad and accurate, IMO. For every time I've seen a tank crew panic and do something stupid, I've also seen a tank crew do something smart or even heroic.

In a game I was playing against the AI a couple of days ago, quite late in the game I set up a scratch ambush with a regular zook and a half squad of regular US infantry to take out a veteran Puma that it was trying to work back towards my Batallion HQ and assorted artillery FOs. The zook held fire until the Puma was about 20m away, and nailed it with the first shot. Now imagine my surprise when the Puma crew jumped out of the wreck under fire from my half squad (which had a BAR, btw, so no lack of short range firepower), charged the 20m to my position, routed the half squad and took the 'zook team prisoner. Now THAT was extremely frustrating.

So from my own experiences playing CM, I'd say there's nothing really wrong with the crew AI.

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Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super

[tss]

Few examples on this subject from Lauri Leppänen's book (that I quoted a couple of days ago the first time).

The last Finnish Stug-IIIG that was lost in the war was hit on front right hull by either an AT gun or a tank during a counter attack at Vuosalmi. Two crew members were wounded, one seriously (he died later because he couldn't be evacuated from the vehicle that was under fire) and one lightly. One of the other crew members (I think he was the loader) panicked and started to run towards the enemy. His comrades shouted to warn him but he continued in the same direction and vanished from sight behind a building. He was never seen again and I think that he is still in the MIA list since his body hasn't been found and he didn't return from captivity, either.

Another occurrence happened during the Kuuterselkä counter attack. One stug of the 3rd Company of Assault Gun Batallion had a broken radio and it didn't hear the order to stop the advance so it continued to advance until it had only 2 AP and 3 HE shots left. At that point the infantry elements that were following the gun told that there were at least ten Soviet tanks behind a ridge line. The stug waited until first of them (a KV, or possibly IS-2) crossed the ridge and stopped it with 1 HE and 1 AP shots (the HE was a mistake). Then the crew started really to worry and the gun commander decided to retreat. They went backwards with full speed, but managed to immobilize the vehicle over a pile of big rocks and had to abandon it. They thought about the situation for few minutes before they realised that they had to go and blow up the stug. However, at the same time Soviet tanks started their advance and they didn't have time to activate the self-destruct charge and had to drop a hand grenade from the hatch. After destroying the vehicle they also realised that they had left their personal weapons in it.

When they walked back to the start lines they got separated and two walked back trying to find their company (one of them was by that time lightly wounded). However, the gun commander took the gunner with him and he went to ask the local infantry commander whether they could do anything useful. The gunner was not too enthuastic about it. They were sent to destroy an intact stug that had been left before the lines (a 152 mm shell had landed in front of it and the crew had then abandoned it because they thought that they had hit a mine). The assault gun was under Soviet small weapons fire and the gunner then decided that they actually had done enough for one battle (they had destroyed 4 tanks) and decided to go back and report that they couldn't get to the stug.

- Tommi

[Guest wwb_99]

I kind of like it when a crew bails from a tank and guns down the 'faust that brewed up their nice, comfortable ride. It is kind of fitting.

WWB

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Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say,

Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus.

[Mr. Clark]

I'm pretty sure I've occassionally witnessed crews bail out and then surrender... not often, but once or twice. I guess it depends on enemy presence.

Anyway, from watching a lot of old WWII real footage lately, it seems that it is fairly realistic for crews to bail out right into enemy fire. I cannot tell you how much footage I've seen of bunker/MG crews running right into enemy fire. Horrific, but apparently realistic...

[Blackhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DraGoon:

I have no intention of starting a polarised argument here, I merely wanted to set the record straight as to whether a crew could be expected to behave logically after abandoning their vehicle.

Blackhorse, I assume from your nickname and location that you are 1st Cav? I took part in an FTX in Germany with elements of 1st Cav, in the Eighties I think. As a member of a Cavalry Regiment with a fine tradition we had many memorable moments with your folks, but had 'disagreements' as to whether black horses or greys were better.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was a tank platoon leader in the 1st Cav, which is located at Fort Hood Texas. Blackhorse refers to the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment. It was in Fulda and is where I commanded an armored cavalry troop (squadron in British terminology).

There is a great example from the Gulf War of an M1A1 crews actions after getting hit by a T-72. Their tank was hit in the engine comparment with the round penetrating the turret basket. The TC and loader were thrown out of their tank, the gunner was wounded, and the driver was shocked.

The TC and loader evacuated the gunner and the driver, but realized they forgot to save the first aid bag. Thye had only their personal weapons, as they forgot everything else during the episode.

This crew was highly trained and had practiced this drill countless times. Ultimately, there is nothing that prepares you for getting your vehicle shot out from under you.

The tank was D-24 from 1-37 Armor, 1st Infantry Division.

I agree that if the vehicle is simply abandoned for mechanical reasons, then the crew might function. To bail out of a stricken vehicle, in my opinion, should leave the crew combat ineffective.

I hate seeing vehicle crews moving forward like infantry. They are not infantry and their sole intentions after leaving their vehicle should be self preservation. This of course is open to massive discussion as I CAN see a crew manning a defensive perimeter in some desperate defensive action where everyone down to the cook is thrown into the defense.

[ntg84]

Sort of sorry I posted this one, you guys got real, pissed at me for asking. I just wanted to know why a crew wouldn't surender when really close to a full sqaud, instead I got huge replies with sarcastic remarks in them. But thanks to the few people who actually tried to answer it.

[DraGoon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ntg84:

Sort of sorry I posted this one, you guys got real, pissed at me for asking. I just wanted to know why a crew wouldn't surender when really close to a full sqaud, instead I got huge replies with sarcastic remarks in them. But thanks to the few people who actually tried to answer it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi

Sorry if you regard my replies as sarcastic they were certainly not meant that way, they were meant to be informative, (they were a bit on the huge side though). I was actually replying to Matt's comment about the application of logic in these situations.

Blackhorse

I was a tank platoon leader in the 1st Cav, which is located at Fort Hood Texas. Blackhorse refers to the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment. It was in Fulda and is where I commanded an armored cavalry troop (squadron in British terminology).

I stand corrected. Thought 1st Cav was Blackhorse.

Germanboy

....I envy you for being able to do that research and work at Bovington. A great place....

Yes, great place. I tried to get my family to visit a couple of years ago when we were down in Cornwall, but the trip to Dorset in Midsummer's traffic was "not felt to be an appropriate use of the day".

Thanks for offering to host the Scenarios, I may need some assistance with German orbats for specific units, as although I have some of the AARs I am having to make guestimates as to the Axis starting forces.

Oops, another long post, consider my wrist severely slapped.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DraGoon:

Thanks for offering to host the Scenarios, I may need some assistance with German orbats for specific units, as although I have some of the AARs I am having to make guestimates as to the Axis starting forces.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No probs - I try to help, but no promises. I am a bit weak on the German side. But I'll try to buy lots of stuff when in Germany next week, so it should get better. Just email me your questions.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-19-2000).]

[ntg84]

I guess It was the way I interpreted it, I'm more of a "yes" or "no" answer type guy. But I guess thats my own problem