Are pillboxes immune from artillery ?

[itkotw]

I was playing a battle, and I tried to destory a couple of pillboxes with artillery (81mm morts. and 105's), but despite hitting them a few times, it all ways said, something like - "hit - no serious damage". So I made up my own battle with 10 - 12 pillboxes (tightly packed, so I could hit them easily) and I gave myself a LOT of artillery ( 35,000 points worth). I fired at the pillboxes for 10 mintues, I hit one pillbox every second... I did not damage or destroy any of them. I would like to see this changed, artillery should be able to hurt or even suppress them. I had EVERY size of artillery, but I did not hurt anything.

ITKOTW

[Redleg]

This was an issue I read about awile ago. I belive that originally the bunkers were too easy too kill and they upped thier survieability against artillery. I think that the way it is is better, as bunkers, especialay concrete desingns, should be very resistant to artillery fire against all but dead on hits.

Smoke the bunker, then get a platoon arround behind it and assault it. This is probably the most realistic method to kill a bunker. At least in my opinion.

[BorderBill]

Itkotw,

When I was a young infantry LT years ago, part of our Officer basic was an artillery firepower demonstration. We were taken out into the impact area, put into a concrete bunker with about a foot of earth on top. Where there would have been firing positions there were 12 1" plexiglass blocks to view through. They fired a battalion of 105mm and walked the center of the barrage within 25 meters of the bunker. Needless to say, a number of 105mm rounds impacted on top of the bunker. It was extremely loud in the bunker and a little dust and loose concrete shook loose from the roof of the bunker. Later, a battalion TOT of 155mm's fired a suppression mission on a treeline 100m to our front. Very impressive. The best was an eight inch arty shell detonated 50m from the bunker. Shrapnel hit one of the vision ports cracking six of the plexiglass panes and caused the blast shutters to slam shut. Several guys instinctivally dove to the floor. Anyway, after the shoot we examined the top of the bunker. The 105mm rounds that impacted on the bunker left fairly small craters and did not penetrate that deep. I used to have a nice piece of the shrapnel that I dug out of one of the craters. The lesson was that while 105mm is very effective against exposed troops and can take out individually dug fighting positions with light overhead cover they are not very effective against bunkers. To take out bunkers you need the big stuff, preferably eight inch and above and you need direct hits. In my experience, 105mm would not be very effective against concrete bunkers.

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...But the voice of a schoolboy rallies the ranks, 'Play up! Play up! and play the game!' Vitai Lampada--Sir Henry Newboldt

Play the game! Motto of 1st Bn, 50th Infantry, US Army.

[This message has been edited by BorderBill (edited 07-09-2000).]

[OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer!]

Goodonya BorderBill!

I enjoyed your anecdote - nothing like straight from the horses mouth! Man, that must have been some experience.

OGSF

[pathfinder]

Ober....

you can say that again...

I been thru what B-Bill did...

it was eye opening to say the least

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unca pathy will show ya the path,

if only he could find it himself!

[BorderBill]

Pathy,

I still recall it well 15 years later. So I would say that it was quite the experience. None of us hardcharging young stud LT's would admit it, but I bet a couple of them later had to replace some wet undergarments. . Anyway, it sure taught us to respect the sheer power of arty.

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...But the voice of a schoolboy rallies the ranks, 'Play up! Play up! and play the game!' Vitai Lampada--Sir Henry Newboldt

Play the game! Motto of 1st Bn, 50th Infantry, US Army.

[Mostro]

In a recent PBEM game I lost my 75mm pillbox by the 3rd shell of the 105 barrage, at the 1st second of the artillery attack.

So, there is a chance to destroy pillboxes by artillery attacks.

[pathfinder]

Border B....yup...

drawers were changed for sure

hehe, and guess what, 4 years later I transferred to artillery,

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unca pathy will show ya the path,

if only he could find it himself!

[Schugger]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mostro:

In a recent PBEM game I lost my 75mm pillbox by the 3rd shell of the 105 barrage, at the 1st second of the artillery attack.

So, there is a chance to destroy pillboxes by artillery attacks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mostro, I had the same experiance in my PBEM games ( Gold Demo, Valley of Trouble). I think pillboxes and bunkers are more resistant to artillery fire with patches 1.01 and Gold Demo 1.02.

[JTMauney]

Note that there is a way to increase the percentage chance (in RL) of destroying a bunker, but it's very rarely used.

As BorderBill said above, the craters were very shallow. This is because those rounds were on superquick fuzing, the normal impact fuze for artillery and mortars. IF you put them on delay, and IF you have a very low AoI on the top of the bunker (i.e.- a near vertical terminal trajectory), you have a chance of the split-second delay allowing the round to actually dig into concrete and cause a sympathetic kinetic explosion, which will tear even reinforced concrete up something fierce. However...

Point targeting with a mortar or field gun is a dicey proposition, at best. Converged fire from an 8-gun battery will sometimes get a shell or two where you want it, and with modern, computer driven FDC systems it's actually possible to set up a converged sheaf in a timely manner. The problem is the number of shells you have drop to get a decent chance of impact. A round, even a 155, impacting dirt on delay fuze has *significantly* less effect than one on superquick or "VT" (actually a radio-return fuze, not variable time). So, if you have to fire, let's say 4 rounds per tube/gun on delay to get your desired impact on bunker, the other 31 rounds were essentially wasted. If you're long on ammo, of course, this isn't problem. What is a problem is that I've NEVER been long on ammo.

Unless there's no other practical method of assault available, and no way to isolate and bypass the bunker, trying to take it out with arty is generally a Bad Idea. Besides, that's what Combat Engineers are for, right?

When I was a FDC chief, I was very leery about FO's that called for delay fuze when there was no dense foliage around. The only really practical use for delay fuze is to punch through dense canopy or for low trajectory impacts through tall trees. Attempting to take out a bunker is considered a waste of precious rounds, especially in the Marine Corps where the offensive pace is fast and ammo can rarely keep up. That was the problem that USMC arty batteries in the Gulf ran into-- it wasn't a lack of targets, but the fact that they were displacing so fast, the ammo carriers couldn't match the pace. With foot-moblie 81's and 60mm mortars, the problem becomes very acute, to say the least.

[Toni_Top_Gun]

Just wanted to add to the power of artillery.

Some ten years ago I did my military service here in Sweden and although I belonged to a Tank Brigade I did six months of service at the artillery. Once I got the opportunity to see the Brigades howitzer battalion fire real 155 mm shells (usually they will only fire 105 mm shells during practice, just to save money). And I must say I don’t wont to be beneath that barrage.

The crater was so deep that I could stand in it and don’t see out over the top. Maybe it could have blasted a bunker, or at least knock the guys in a bunker out for a while. But the mortar rounds of 120 mm mortars (used here in Sweden) can probably not knock out a concrete bunker.

/Toni