goodwood Posted February 11, 2000 Share Posted February 11, 2000 It is a toss up what's better, playing the CM Demo or reading all the different ideas gamers have for winning Chance Encounter and others. Reading the C/E thread reminded me of a comment, an old infantry WO2 made to me 20 years ago, when I was struggling to pass my company in defence terminal for Sgt. He told me "there was no right or wrong answer" however I changed that theory, I couldn't get it right, it must to have had something to do with being a tyrebiter instead a grunt.If this board had a been around then maybe I would have had less dramas, after reading some the different Ideas I played C/E as the jerrys and won 85/15, keep the great posts up I could become an infantry commander yet :roll eyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCHANGEL Posted February 12, 2000 Share Posted February 12, 2000 Goodwood, Hang on...you'll get there...and your WO2 was correct... The way I was told: If it works, it was right... if it didnt work, it was wrong...and what works today may not work tomorrow... (I found this to be extordinarily accurate.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbg2112 Posted February 12, 2000 Share Posted February 12, 2000 I'm not a grognard (sp?), but CM has already taught me the value of experience, especially because experience gives you a sense of scale on the battlefield. We develop a sense for how fast different units can move under various situations, and a sense for how their weapons are best deployed offensively and defensively, etc. These things become the building blocks to learning tactics. Case in point: PBEM, CE. My opponent, as the Americans, conducts a little experiement (okay, he was a newbie like me)and rushes his tanks forward. We were both stunned at how far he got, and how quickly -- I never got a chance to get my units into their positions and he was hammering away at them, in the open. I spent the next fifteen turns simply reacting and trying to retreat and reorganize before I realized that he'd already won. If he tried that now, I'd react very differently. Whether it'd be right or wrong, who knows? Everybody talks about the "fog of war", but nobody talks about the "chaos of war" in the "chaos theory" sense of the word: seemingly small, insignificant things can have tremendous consequences on the field. (I think this is ultimately why BTS is so obsessed with realism, and why CM is so realistic.) But back to experience. We also need to develop a sense for troop quality and condition -- how hard you can push a veteran unit, what you can expect out of a green unit, etc. under various conditions. I'm reading everything I can on tactics, but it comes down to playing as many scenarios as possible. This is why the three scenarios have been so useful, although it has been pointed out that the danger is that you'll wind up trying to solve them like puzzles. Try that in DYO scenarios when CM comes out -- in fact, I just realized that I should probly focus exclusively on DYO scenarios until I feel like I have enough experience to tackle the included scenarios. This way, I'll get even more enjoyment out of the included scenarios because I'll be that much better when I play them for the first time. Again, back to experience. The first few engagements will probly teach a newbie that there are no absolutes on the battlefield (other than war is heck ), but as that newbie plays again and again, they'll develop a sense for what works and what doesn't. They'll learn to sense when they can attack, counter-attack, withdraw, attrit, etc. versus when they should actually do any of those things. (I have no military experience and no wargaming experience, but that's what I've learned in 2 months of CM. Where else can you get so much education for approx. US $50?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted February 12, 2000 Share Posted February 12, 2000 sbg2112, In my more philosophical moments I talk about "feeling" the course of the battle. Which is what you're talking about. Once you can "sense" what to do and when (along with a good sense of what is and isn't possible) without having to consciously think about it I think you're at the level you need to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iggi Posted February 12, 2000 Share Posted February 12, 2000 Use the force luke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knaust Posted February 12, 2000 Share Posted February 12, 2000 geeezzzzzz iggi....I didnt know I was fighting a Yoda! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted February 12, 2000 Share Posted February 12, 2000 Hull down you must be. Fluid your defenses are. Then you will be Jedi Tank Commander. But beware the dark side of the Faust. ------------------ Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbg2112 Posted February 12, 2000 Share Posted February 12, 2000 Fionn, Yep, which was kinda frustrating because I've been clamoring for stuff on tactics. I finally realized that reading about it had about as much to do with combat as a military parade. Reading gives you a vocabulary, in a sense, but you have to learn to use that vocabulary on the field. That's why the people who do this for real have maneuvers and wargames. Practice, practice, practice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iggi Posted February 12, 2000 Share Posted February 12, 2000 Two fundemental concepts that all combat revolves around. 1)Terrain is static. 2)Combat power is fluid. This is the origin of all tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iggi Posted February 12, 2000 Share Posted February 12, 2000 Confuciuos say, fire from a valley or you will receive bullets in both ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted February 12, 2000 Share Posted February 12, 2000 Actually, you can beat these hasty tactics very easily. I had a PBEM game where my opponent bursted through with 3 of his Shermans up to the church. Right away I lost 2 StuG's and the thrid soon after that with him only losing 1 Sherman. But, I only lost the equivalent of 2 Squads of Infantry, plus a HMG and a Panzerschreck. Well, I just consolodated my forces, went on the defensive well within forest territories. Generally, when people get such a success early in the game they tend to get overconfident. This is a vital weapon at your disposal. I managed to take out 2 more Shermans with hidden and cut off Schrecks which he didn't discover (the only bonus of being overrun!). He then tried to break into my first defensive Hedgehog, the small forest inbetween the German Start off point and the Chruch. I had 2 Green, yet untouched squads, 1 previously routed Conscript Squad, 2 HMG's, and 2 Schrecks. This hegdehog was covered by my larger defenses in the Big forest on the German side by HMG's. When the Allied forces moved in, after bombarding the side of the forest that I wasn't on with virtually all their Mortor shells they spent time dealing with the bypassed Schreck and it's HQ unit, then they advanced on my defensive line and were promptly stopped with severe casualties. I also had 3 Veteran and Regular Platoons in the American big forest advancing on the single American Platoon there. We called a cease fire with about 20 or so turns left, ending in an American victory (as he held 3 of 4 victory flags), but, my force was still in good order, causalties were about equal on both sides. This was well after turn 5 or so when I thought things were hopeless. The key is, to never rely on a single unit, especially tanks, in order to win a battle for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captain Foobar Posted February 13, 2000 Share Posted February 13, 2000 Major Tom, That is an excellent post. I am trying to learn effective defensive tactics for the Germans right now. Offense feels alot easier; its easier to decide the *timing* of the battle. I often find myself merely reacting on defense, where my firepower is alot more static (ie. Reisberg) So my question for that situation; Do you get a feeling that you would have done better or worse if your opponent had advanced slowly and methodically. The heart of my question is to the matter of regaining initiative on defensive, when the attackers have Fire Superiority out in the open. I asked a similar question recently, towards the use of artillery HE or Smoke, to regain defensive initiative. It sounds like you used concealment to make up for a firepower deficiency, until you saw him in a moment of vulnerability. I cant wait to see the final version, and I can try to learn the finer mechanics of hiding and spotting in CM. Thanks again ------------------ fnord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini Goanna Posted February 13, 2000 Share Posted February 13, 2000 I also have a small amount of computer wargaming experience and my actual experience was limited to basic training, so I have been playing the beta demo to try and gain the feel of the units in how they operate. I certainly know now not to rely on a green platoon of volksgrenadiers to accomplish a critical flanking move and such. I have also tried to practice some of the basics, even if they are not covered in the beta demo. I still try not to bunch my units in a line even though I found out that grazing fire doesnt work in the demo. I am still practicing my advances too, using overwatch and timed rushes. I find playing offense is much harder than setting an effective defence so it requires more practice. This is why I think your "play only DYO games first" may be a good one until I get experience to take on the well thought out scenarios from folks like WIld Bill, rather than spoil them. ------------------ . . . we don't gnaw on our kitty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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