Kraut Posted June 16, 2000 Share Posted June 16, 2000 I really don't want to get into the CC vs. CM debate because it brings us nowhere. However there was a quote on the CC forum from doug (think it's still THE doug from atomic) which disturbed me and i would really like BTS, or anyone who has knowledge of the subject, to comment on it. It doesn't have much to do with CC or CM directly, but more about marketing computer games nawadays. Well, here it is ... "Charley and company have every right to be proud of the game they have made. They couldn't find a publisher/distributor for it so they are guerella marketing it themselves. Nothing wrong with that. OTOH, there is something wrong with the actual execution. *snip stuff*" I was always thinking BTS actually made the game without a publisher because they didn't WANT a publisher. They chose to make the game on their own because they didn't want outside interferance (their manifesto is kinda cool ). Am i mistaken? Is it not feasable in these times to make a game on your own, publish it and sell it yourself, without going bankrupt? Steve, Charles, sorry if i'm being off-topic or just out of line here, especially when we all should be focussing on the release of CM, but i'm just interested in this and that quote really disturbed me. MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 16, 2000 Share Posted June 16, 2000 Just sounds like a sort of subtle put-down of CM to me. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt B M Deleted Posted June 16, 2000 Share Posted June 16, 2000 I heard about that Doug from atomic before on this BBS. I heard he was a prick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 16, 2000 Share Posted June 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Capt. Manieri: I heard about that Doug from atomic before on this BBS. I heard he was a prick.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Language, Manieri, language... Your very ill-advised and abusive previous posts were being used on the CC board to slam all of us. Do us all, and yourself, a favour and start growing up. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted June 16, 2000 Share Posted June 16, 2000 Well, they DID ask us to drop it. It's clear that some animosity exists, especially after the pointless and stupid exchanges of recent days. I'm sure there's always one more thing to say, but we should just let BTS handle CC. CCs loyal followers, like ours, will never be swayed by argument or invective- we just draw more trolls and stupidity here, and get a very bad reputation for ourselves. So we should comply with BTSs wishes, as they have complied with so many of ours, and drop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.Tankersley Posted June 16, 2000 Share Posted June 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kraut: They couldn't find a publisher/distributor for it so they are guerella marketing it themselves.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Depending on how charitable you want to be, "couldn't find" could mean "couldn't find one interested in the game" or "couldn't find one willing to let BTS have creative control." IIRC BTS had interest from publishers but declined because they wanted to make a game THEY wanted to play. Happily, I want to play that game as well. ------------------ Leland J. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraut Posted June 16, 2000 Author Share Posted June 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV: Well, they DID ask us to drop it. It's clear that some animosity exists, especially after the pointless and stupid exchanges of recent days. I'm sure there's always one more thing to say, but we should just let BTS handle CC. CCs loyal followers, like ours, will never be swayed by argument or invective- we just draw more trolls and stupidity here, and get a very bad reputation for ourselves. So we should comply with BTSs wishes, as they have complied with so many of ours, and drop it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You're right. Pretty stupid of me to post about this. Sorry, but i was thinking (for an instant maybe) that i might get some info on the feasability of marketing a game like BTS is marketing CM. It's just a matter of time before the trolls show up and turn this one into a pile of stinky dung MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbg2112 Posted June 16, 2000 Share Posted June 16, 2000 Apologies to BTS cause I know they don't want any more noise on this, but I just have to say.... Nothin' worse than wargamers warrin' over games. It's a shame there's not a way to "settle" this -- some sort of CC vs. CM tournament. Somebody needs to engineer a "wargames ladder" so the people that care about which is "better" can keep themselves distracted rather than distracting everybody else with their war of words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 16, 2000 Share Posted June 16, 2000 I look at it this way - anytime a publisher has *any* sort of control on how the game should play, look or feel it's a *huge* stinky pile of rat dung. Take CC for example. I'm glad BTS either could find or didn't want a big name publisher. -Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted June 16, 2000 Share Posted June 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kraut: It's just a matter of time before the trolls show up and turn this one into a pile of stinky dung <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Are you calling me a troll? Well all I know, is that my friend was a huge CC fan, however, I never was 'cause I never could get into the top-down/real-time clickfest that CC was. As soon as I showed him CM, he was like "What's CC?" However, he was still not sold until the Gold Demo. He's just one on those hard-headed dumb-asses that doesn't get it until you slap him up side the head with your "little guy" Trust me, he won't take offense to that. But on the topic of the thread, My answer to the whole distributor/publisher question is Read the Battlefront.com Manifesto and that'll answer your questions. Unless you're some hard-headed prick CEO from a big named software company. ------------------ Don't mind me. I'm just a little ol' realist. [This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 06-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dell Wade Posted June 16, 2000 Share Posted June 16, 2000 I can add a bit on this Disti bit. I'm really good friend with Jeff Fiske and Ken Parker of impressions Games. Both of them told me that they asked if CM needed a distributor and help in marketing (I.E. Sierra/Havas to help) Basically they got a Not No but heck NO answer. So here is a bit of fact and not some big software designer complaining about the compition ============================================ "Just Give me the Prize" Kurgen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted June 16, 2000 Share Posted June 16, 2000 Yo Dell, good to see you buddy. Won't be long now. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffen Posted June 16, 2000 Share Posted June 16, 2000 im in a band that is selffunded and there are many advantages to selling your own product . number 1 is the joy of knowing you have control over your product . there are also probs with selling your own product mainly the big companys dont want to know you .you are takeing a slice of there pie .they will attempt to copy you if your selling well.and your not able to sell your product in all the hot spots ,store etc.if you do say sign with the big boys there are many probs like they may give you say $7 (guessing im not in the games industry)each copy you sell .but the profit may be $14 when selling it yourself.you have no real control of the product .lets say BTS wants to add in those super looking explosives effects they do it because they think its cool and want to make There game the best it can be.the biggys may say stuff that, lets make em wait till the new mission pack comes out in 4 months time thats a extra $40 .not saying this is any games firm .im in the music industry and this is how the biggys go on ive seen it happen . they truely dont give a turd about anyone.this is why we ALL should SUPPORT BTS they are giveing us a amazing game and they deserve all the rewards this game will bring them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dar Posted June 16, 2000 Share Posted June 16, 2000 They just have their panties in a knot because, unlike CC, CM is based too much on reality. Dar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicKevlar Posted June 16, 2000 Share Posted June 16, 2000 Alright, I went out to the CC site and read the full of Doug's statement since it appeared to be take out of context somewhat....here goes: Just stop it! NO MORE. Charley and company have every right to be proud of the game they have made. They couldn't find a publisher/distributor for it so they are guerella marketing it themselves. Nothing wrong with that. OTOH, there is something wrong with the actual execution. Be that as it may, there is also something wrong with the regulars from here launching, or even participating in, non-sequitir attacks on ANYONE. Just don't do it. If you don't have someting nice to say, don't say anything. Close Combat excepted since this forum is pretty much devoted to the CC bitch session, and that is a good thing we learn from that and I wouldn't have it any other way. Seriously. I ENCOURAGE EVERYONE to at least give CM a try. Buy it if you even kinda like it. Hell, if you are a hardcore wargamer, buy it even if you DONT like it. Support the companies that are supporting wargamers. If you don't, soon there won't be any of us left. Atomic has never felt that we were in competition for the wargamer dollars. You guys are hobbyists and alot of you buy EVERY wargame that you can. So I don't mind CMs little marketing blitz, I understand it. Nor will I debate the skill with which it was executed and I hope no one will either. Consider this to be a retorhical statement that brooks no response. Doug It appears to me he was merely stating an opinion...not a put down of CM. Heck, he even encouraged everyone to at least try it. He is right, I believe, about all of us being wargamers at heart and pissing contests like what has been happening is pointless since we all buy pretty much the same stuff anyway (at least I do). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MantaRay Posted June 16, 2000 Share Posted June 16, 2000 Hi Del, welcome to the Board. I believe that Steve(Not sure about Charles) worked at Impressions for a few years on the Civil War game they had. And since Sierra publishes Impressions games, I am glad they didnt go that route. Ray ------------------ When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one." MantaRays 5 Pages Hardcore Gamers Daily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dell Wade Posted June 16, 2000 Share Posted June 16, 2000 Hey Joe Couldn't stay away forever. Actually read just about every day while i'm "Busy" at work ------------------ "Just Give Me the Prize" Kurgen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 Just to clarify the thing about publishing... We opted to not have a publisher because to do so would have compromised what we wanted Combat Mission to be. In spite of our very honest and outward distaste for large publishers we were approached in a serious way by two. We turned both down. We don't need to have the screws put to us by the suits only to have us dropped when they decided that they don't want or need us anymore. We chose our course and never once felt the need to whore ourselves to make a living. Strong statement? You bet As for the somewhat less than positive view of our marketing... Doug might be surprised over the next couple of months how "little" our effort is. While other games look to huge advertising budgets to secure timely and favorable reviews we decided to do it the old way -> merit. And from what we have seen so far, it is working. All in all things are going better than we could ever have hoped in terms of PR. And the game hasn't even reached people's hands yet Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 Yep, what Steve said! ------------------ "I for one, am pretty damn close to Genius"--Ol' Blood & Maximus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraut Posted June 17, 2000 Author Share Posted June 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Just to clarify the thing about publishing... We opted to not have a publisher because to do so would have compromised what we wanted Combat Mission to be. In spite of our very honest and outward distaste for large publishers we were approached in a serious way by two. We turned both down. We don't need to have the screws put to us by the suits only to have us dropped when they decided that they don't want or need us anymore. We chose our course and never once felt the need to whore ourselves to make a living. Strong statement? You bet As for the somewhat less than positive view of our marketing... Doug might be surprised over the next couple of months how "little" our effort is. While other games look to huge advertising budgets to secure timely and favorable reviews we decided to do it the old way -> merit. And from what we have seen so far, it is working. All in all things are going better than we could ever have hoped in terms of PR. And the game hasn't even reached people's hands yet Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm glad things are working out. It's a relief, because i think the "system" you're using produces better games for us all to play. Of course it takes a *little* longer to make 'em, but in the end it doesn't really matter. MK ps. I like the "whore" thing Anyone read about the development of daikatana? 30 million dollar whore worth 1 1/2 stars ... rofl [This message has been edited by Kraut (edited 06-17-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 How does that saying go? "Quality sells itself", wasn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 Thanks MK, Well, the development time might seem to be longer, but when you think about it... since most games that are cranked out in 1.5 years are (IMHO) utter crap, I don't buy them, which means I might go 3 years before I find one I really love. And of course CM will continue to evlove and grow over time, but FAR less time than the first one Daikatana could be the Poster Child for everything that is wrong with our industry. We could have started up a game company to make 3 CM quality games simultaneously for about 1 million or less (that means paying salaries ). We could have then GIVEN away every copy of our games and then used the rest of the 29 million kept the niche well stocked and fed with high quality games for at least 10 years. But no... one company has to blow it all on one game that NOBODY wants to touch with a 10 foot pole. OK, you got me started Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 06-17-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraut Posted June 17, 2000 Author Share Posted June 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: OK, you got me started <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Please, continue ... (daikatana cha cha cha, daikatana cha cha cha!) ... heh MK ps. Daikatana! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shep Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 It seems to me that software distributors offer two advantages: money up front, and a distribution network. But in exchange they want control over various aspects of development, and a hefty chunk of the profits. There is a fair amount of danger there. I am so glad that BTS had the resources to develop CM on their own. I have an appreciation for BTS because of my own professional path. I'm a pastor in a small non-denominational Bible church here in Colorado. Many years ago, when I was just starting out in the ministry, I made the choice to stay away from denominations for the very reason that BTS chose to go their path. Denominations want money from your local congregation, and they demand a certain amount of control over what you say and how you worship. Those things were and are intolerable to me, so here I am. There is another similarity between the two that is worth noting. When you're on your own, it comes down to the quality of your product. The money involved with software distributors (and denominations) keeps afloat a certain number of entities that are crummy; and they also down the quality of many of the good ones through their meddling. Being on your own puts your product in the public forum to live or die according to its quality, and in the case of BTS that's a really good thing. It makes me happy to see the success of BTS with CM. They deserve it completely! --- Mark ------------------ Scouts Out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobC Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 I like the idea of independent development of CM, but in regards to marketing (I believe I have a stake in this as a purchaser of the game and one who hopes to enjoy future versions and derivatives of it), I think you ought to put simple one-page adds in the major computer game magazines and attempt to distribute the game in major national stores such as electronic boutique as well as the internet computer game resellers. I think you would make a lot more money, which would be good for all of us. RobC ------------------ Freedom is not a right. It is a privilege bought and paid for with the blood of patriots. Robert A. Heinlein in "Starship Troopers" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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