Long Range Gunnery(long)

[Ron]

I played a QB a short time ago where a Veteran hulldown Hetzer engaged 3 stationary Shermans at around 1300m. It took 11 shots before the Hetzer got a hit/kill then it's remaining 8 shots all missed rendering it almost useless for the remainder of the battle. The Shermans bounced 6 ot 7 shots off of the Hetzer IIRC. Now being a vet crew, I would have thought the Hetzer's **** would have been in the '**** together' camp instead of the '**** happens' one. Be that as it may, the computer wasn't very sympathetic to my protestations so I ran a few tests to get a better understanding of how CM handles this.

I setup some tests of Veteran AT guns in woods versus Regular stationary tanks at 1500m. I ran them 50 times, the tanks never returned fire as they didn't spot the AT guns, with the following results:

88Flak vs M4A3(75)

Hitchance - 15%

278shots/87hits

avg. shots 1st hit - 4.14

avg. shots per kill - 5.56

1st shot hits - 16%

worst case for 1st hit - 11shots

5 or more shots for 1st hit - 38%

Pak43 vs M4A3(75)

Hitchance - 20%

190shots/53hits

avg. shots 1st hit - 3.56

avg. shots per kill - 3.80

1st shot hits - 18%

worst case for 1st hit - 10shots

5 or more shots for 1st hit - 28%

17pdr vs PzIVJ

Hitchance - 18%

177shots/51hits

avg. shots 1st hit - 3.52

avg. shots per kill - 3.54

1st shot hits - 24%

worst case for 1st hit - 16shots

5 or more shots for 1st hit - 24%

US76mm vs PzIVJ

Hitchance - 16%

203shots/53hits

avg. shots 1st hit - 3.90

avg. shots per kill - 4.06

1st shot hits - 12%

worst case for 1st hit - 10shots

5 or more shots for 1st hit - 38%

Next I setup some tests using the Nashorn and Tiger, again ran them 50 times, all tanks were stationary and the range was 1500m. HD is hulldown.

Elite Nashorn(HD) vs RegularM4A3(75)

Hitchance - 27%

141shots/52hits

avg. shots 1st hit - 2.63

avg. shots per kill - 2.78

1st shot hits - 34%

worst case for 1st hit - 6shots

5 or more shots for 1st hit - 14%

The Sherman spotted the Nashorn in about 20s and KO'd it once. Two times there was mutual destruction.

Reg.Nashorn(HD) vs Reg.M4A3(75)

Hitchance - 19%

177shots/44hits

avg. shots 1st hit - 3.17

avg. shots per kill - 3.26

1st shot hits - 24%

worst case for 1st hit - 7shots

5 or more shots for 1st hit - 31%

Again the Sherman spotted the Nashorn in about 20s and KO'd it 8 times. Once there was a mutual destruction.

Vet.Tiger vs Vet.M4A3(76)

Tiger

Hitchance - 16%

255shots/73hits

avg. shots 1st hit - 4.15

avg. shots per kill - 5.21

1st shot hits - 14%

worst case for 1st hit - 11shots

5 or more shots for 1st hit - 38%

Sherman(76)

Hitchance - 18%

305shots/116hits

avg. shots 1st hit - 2.85

1st shot hits - 21%

worst case for 1st hit - 8shots

The Sherman(76) KO'd the Tiger twice with weak point penetrations and damaged it's gun once.

Something I noticed while running these tests: the hitchance never went past a certain point no matter how many shots were fired, ie the Sherman(76)'s hitchance went from 18% to 45% firing 8 shots, and stayed at 45% even after 16 shots. Another question raised was how does the unit experience affect the hitchance for subsequent shots? From what I saw it seemed to rise uniformly regardless of experience.

Taken as a whole the gunnery accuracy seems ok, especially in light of comments I have read on this forum from people who are well versed on the subject, yet the variability is extreme and I wonder if that is historically true. From the little reading I have done, it was SOP for German armour to engage targets at long range. With the diversified results I witnessed, I would question the wisdom of adopting that practice in CM as you may not have enough shells! I would like to hear any comments or questions.

Regards,

Ron

[Guest Michael emrys]

*Nice* piece of work, Ron. Most of the numbers look about right to me, with a couple exceptions. The accuracy of the 17lb. and the 76mm seem slightly inflated and that for the Tiger a little low.

As regards engagements occuring at "long range", I have the impression that people persist in coming to this game with expectations formed by M1A1 performance in the Gulf War.

WW II was a different kettle of fish. Average range of engagement was about 500 meters with many well below that. For instance, I have seen photographs that purport to be of the climactic battles at Kursk of large formations of German and Soviet tanks mixed up and firing at each other from ranges less than 50 meters. And this is open terrain. Long range would have been 800-1000 meters in most cases.

Michael

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ron:

Vet.Tiger vs Vet.M4A3(76)

Tiger

Hitchance - 16%

255shots/73hits

avg. shots 1st hit - 4.15

avg. shots per kill - 5.21

1st shot hits - 14%

worst case for 1st hit - 11shots

5 or more shots for 1st hit - 38%

Sherman(76)

Hitchance - 18%

305shots/116hits

avg. shots 1st hit - 2.85

1st shot hits - 21%

worst case for 1st hit - 8shots

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We can compare actual Tiger1 performance in your tests in CM to the German accuracy charts, with range estimations of accuracy, compiled during the war, with the 8.8 cm KwK 36 L56 of the Tiger 1.

*8.8 cm KwK 36 L56 fireing Pzgr.39/43. % of hits on gunnery range, vs 2m high 2.5m wide target with range predetermined.

Combat % in ( )'s.

100ms - 100 (100%)

500ms - 100 (100)

1000ms - 100 (93)

1500ms - 98 (74)

2000ms - 87 (50)

2500ms - 71 (31)

3000ms - 53 (19)

*See Jentz Thomas L "Germany's Tiger Tanks" p.10

Regards, John Waters

------

"Make way evil, I'm armed to the teeth and packing a hamster!"

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 08-12-2000).]

[Ron]

Thanks for the response Michael. I probably have the same misconception also of long range engagements from reading ancedotal accounts on the Russian Front.

Ron

[Red Devils]

Less tests, more playing!

------------------

I'm sorry, we haven't the

facilities to take all of you prisoner. Was there anything else?

[Ron]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>John Waters wrote:

*8.8 cm KwK 36 L56 fireing Pzgr.39/43. % of hits on gunnery range, vs 2m high 2.5m wide target with range predetermined.

Combat % in ( )'s.

100ms - 100 (100%)

500ms - 100 (100)

1000ms - 100 (93)

1500ms - 98 (74)

2000ms - 87 (50)

2500ms - 71 (31)

3000ms - 53 (19)

*See Jentz Thomas L "Germany's Tiger Tanks" p.10<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that tells a different story. What kind of factor would the predetermined range play in the resulting percentages?

Ron

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

As regards engagements occuring at "long range", I have the impression that people persist in coming to this game with expectations formed by M1A1 performance in the Gulf War.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree but I would add that engagements were fought at long ranges in WW2 some kills rivaled Gulf war kills in range. Ie, in Normandy one Pz Div reported its 'normal engagement range' was 600 - 1200ms.

Compareing the M1A1 capabilities to an WW2 tank would be incorrect in most aspects as well due to gunnery advances made over the last decades. As for its performance in the Gulf, the longest range kill by an M1 was 3750ms, the British Challenger 1 had the longest range kill of the Gulf at 5100ms.

An Tiger 1 killed an IS-1 in Russia @ 3900ms with its lowly 2.5x/5x sight. Their are reports of even longer range kills with tanks and AT-guns, as has been pointed out CM max ranges at the most are a lil over 1000 - 1500ms due to map restrictions.

German optic advantages over 1000ms are not modeled in CM nor is the Sherman's optics problems at anything over 1000ms, US & Ge optics in CM are considered equal from what I have read on the topics in the forum.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

WW II was a different kettle of fish. Average range of engagement was about 500 meters with many well below that. For instance, I have seen photographs that purport to be of the climactic battles at Kursk of large formations of German and Soviet tanks mixed up and firing at each other from ranges less than 50 meters. And this is open terrain. Long range would have been 800-1000 meters in most cases.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And were many engagements above 1200ms as well, Normandy is the area most cited as haveing engagement ranges at 400ms and this range is converted to the 'norm' for all tank engagement ranges in WW2 in general by most ppl. While on the other hand just as many longer range engagements did occur in the west & especialy in Russia.

That is another part of the well established myth concerning the 3 seperate tank battles fought in and around Prokhorovka, as are the long standing Russian depictions of Panthers & Ferdinands with the SS Pz.K at Prokhorovka.

Regards, John Waters

---------

"Go for the eyes Boo, go for the eyes!!"

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 08-13-2000).]

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ron:

Well that tells a different story. What kind of factor would the predetermined range play in the resulting percentages?

Ron<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ron in real tank engagements range must be deterimed by the gunner,while fireing with sight range adjustments being made till a hit is made. In the above the range was already determined before with the resulting hit % listed.

Regards, John Waters

-------

"Make way evil, I'm armed to the teeth and packing a hamster!"

[JoePrivate]

Interesting data, Ron. I would think a more experienced crew would bracket their shots faster, but aside from the higher initial hit percentage I don't know if that is modelled. Now if the gyrostabilizer and nahverteidigungswaffe are modelled in the game in some aspect, why isn't the difference in optics? As John points out the Germans had an optical advantage over 1000m.

[Mikeydz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Now if the gyrostabilizer and nahverteidigungswaffe are modelled in the game in some aspect, why isn't the difference in optics? As John points out the Germans had an optical advantage over 1000m.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IIRC, the reason BTS did not model the better German optics was mainly because how much better were they? 10%? 25%? more? less?

Since they were unable to come up with any quantative figure they could use that could be backed up or verified, they decided not to make a guess and left it out.

[JoePrivate]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>IIRC, the reason BTS did not model the better German optics was mainly because how much better were they? 10%? 25%? more? less?

Since they were unable to come up with any quantative figure they could use that could be backed up or verified, they decided not to make a guess and left it out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, I understand what you are saying but what kind of bonus does the gyrostabilizer give while moving? 5%? 10%? Is there data to verify that? And from what I recall there was quite a debate over the inclusion of the nahverteidigungswaffe.

I guess it may not be a going concern because the map sizes in CM restrict the ranges somewhat anyway.

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

And were many engagements above 1200ms as well...

An Tiger 1 killed an IS-1 in Russia @ 3900ms with its lowly 2.5x/5x sight.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not disputing that or similar claims. It's just that I notice that armed with such information, a lot of gamers expect to be able to do that on a regular basis, something that was beyond their real-life counterparts. That would be confusing the exceptional with the routine. CM definitely allows exceptional things to happen already, there is no need to skew the probabilities in their favor.

Michael

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mikeydz:

IIRC, the reason BTS did not model the better German optics was mainly because how much better were they? 10%? 25%? more? less?

Since they were unable to come up with any quantative figure they could use that could be backed up or verified, they decided not to make a guess and left it out.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Their is no doubt German optics were better to Allied optics this is made clear in reports from both German and Allied tank

crew as to an modeled % IMHO at any range over 1000ms German % to hit for the Tiger 1, Panther, & Tiger II, Jadgpanther etc should be 10 - 25% greater then Shermans, Comets etc.

To reflect sight picture diferences. While engaements below 1000ms are modeled IMHO fine as their was less a discrepency in optics at these ranges between either side.

Sight magnification level played a large part in an tanks ability to hit the standard German optics In CM for the Panther would be the TzF12a with 2.5x & 5x Magnification. For the Tiger 1, it was the TzF9c 2.5x & 5x. Tiger 2 the TzF9b 3x & 6x magnification.

The Germans generaly located the target with the lower magnification then depending on range used the higher magnification to zoom in which allowed them to get more accurate hits, as well as an higher % of 1st round hits to and above 1000ms.

Shermans used the 3x unfiltered M70 sight,and it didn't have the optical quality or power of German sights. Another advantage in German optics was that they were filtered this allowed them to filter out somewhat weather effects etc, that hampered the M70 at 1000ms and above ranges giveing German tanks a clearer sight picture at all ranges.

The optics are going to have to be considered in CM 2 as Soviet optics were very poor, and didn't get better till they copied the British Mark IV sight in late 42 early 43. I am also pretty sure I have heard of an US report on German optics and their advantages done after the war in 46 or 47.

Anyway I'm not posting this to ask for a change in CM. but merely to show their was an diference in the optics that for whatever reason BTS chose not to model, & its their decision that matters, I am very happy with CM.

Regards, John Waters

-------

"Go for the eyes Boo, go for the eyes!!"

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 08-13-2000).]

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JoePrivate:

Thanks, I understand what you are saying but what kind of bonus does the gyrostabilizer give while moving? 5%? 10%? Is there data to verify that? And from what I recall there was quite a debate over the inclusion of the nahverteidigungswaffe.

I guess it may not be a going concern because the map sizes in CM restrict the ranges somewhat anyway.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IIRC the stabilizer is suposed to only have a small effect on moveing & fireing.

I am seeing more and more Sherman hits while moveing even fast; in rough terrain. In the QB i'm playing ATM an Sherman 75 drove through brush, over a hill then reversed and still hit my Panther 3 times all while moveing from 942ms - 800ms, the Panther Vet crew missed repeatedly evan at 807ms.

An Stuart in the same scenerio from 762ms - 579ms hit my Jadgpanther 6 times through 2 turns while going mach 3 , thru trees, around a pond & over a hayfeild.

I had an interesting occurance with a vet Panther G (late) crew they had 3 tanks in LOS 1 on each side and 1 ahead, the crew AI couldn't figure out which 1 to shoot apperently and sat their takeing hits until the Panther was KO'd w/o fireing a shot.....

Regards, John Waters

--------

"Go for the eyes Boo, go for the eyes!!"