tungsten rounds

[KiwiJoe]

I have a few questions about these. How does the tac AI decide on when to use them? And what exactly are they? My understanding is they are tungsten cored and surrounded in a metal case. I presume tugsten is a heavy metal but why is it so effective in tank rounds?

[MERC]

Because it very dense.

The key to effective kinetic energy rounds is:

1. Very dense and heavy

2. Be capable of being fired at very high velocity.

3. Hardness (so the penetrator or tungsten round doesn't shatter on impact)

The physics is:

K = 0.5*M*V*V

K = kinetic energy

M = mass

V = velocity (V*V is velocity squarded)

[Guest Heinz 25th PzReg]

Hi KiwiJoe

1.I dont know how the AI decides to use these rounds. Probably when it faces heavy armour, like a Tiger. Its also more like that it will use it against the frontal armour a heavy tank.

2. I think the tip of the shell is made of tungsten, rather than normal steel. This makes the round much harder, and its less likely to break up when it hits thick armour. And that gives it higher penetration than a normal AP round. The tungsten rounds were not that usual, but I dont have any numbers to point to. I think they were introduced by the Germans on the Eastern Fron when they encountered the T-34 and KV tanks.

Heinz

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[KiwiJoe]

Yeah the tac ai seems strange when using these rounds. I had a sherman jumbo 76 fire a tungsten round into then front turrent of a tiger 1 at 300 metres. The round penetrated with no damage. So it then fired a standard AP round which also penetrated the front turrent but knocked the tank out. I cant for the life of me figure out why it decided to switch, other then maybe the round penetrated too well and they decided to save further tungsten rounds. Tungsten rounds turn the somewhat reasonable 76mm gun into a death machine... 249mm penetration at 100m OUCH!

Is the reason the Jerries don't seem to have these rounds because its late in the war and they have no/little access to the stuff?

[MERC]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KiwiJoe:

Is the reason the Jerries don't seem to have these rounds because its late in the war and they have no/little access to the stuff?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From what I have read, later in the war Germany industry was facing shortages of raw material to extract the tungsten. It was this shortage that cause Germany to look at other alternatives - the Shape Charge or commonly known today as the Heat round.

[Sailor Malan]

If you have the full game, read p58. In summary, the TAc AI will only use special ('tungsten') when normal ammo has failed and it is reasonbly sure of getting a hit. The fact that a normal (AP) round killed the Tiger shows that the TacAI was correct in not wasting a further round of T.

The Tungsten is actually the core of the shot, with a shape optimised for penetration. Since this isn't the best ballistic shape, and to make the shot up to the correct diameter for the bore, it is sheathed, and capped in softer, less dense metal. This also has the by product of 'gripping' the face of the armour on oblique impacts, and discouraging it from bouncing off. This composite shot had lead on to APDS (armour piercing discarding sabot) by the end of the war in UK service, and hence to all the modern 'dart' shot (APFSDS etc).

Yes the Germans were critically short of Tungsten by this stage in the war. They were never that well off for it, but used it much more in 42-43

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[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KiwiJoe:

Is the reason the Jerries don't seem to have these rounds because its late in the war and they have no/little access to the stuff?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In 1943 the Germans had an bad Tungsten shortage, their had never been a large production of Pzgr.40 rounds for main tank guns anyway due to shortages, but it became worse in 1943.

Here is where the speculuation begins on this subject, some claim that in mid 1943 Tungsten production, ceased altogether, due to the shortage. Others claim that Tungsten production for ammo did continue in small quantaties, but only for certian weapons.

While others claim that German crews did beg, borrow or steal around 3 - 5 Pzgr.40 APCR rounds kept put away for emergency use vs the heaviest Allied tanks, Ie, the Jumbo, IS-2, etc. Also the Germans continued the year sequence for Pzgr.40 rounds until at least Feb 1945, Pzgr.40 was sequenced by year Ie, Pzgr.40/42, Pzgr.40/43, Pzgr.40/44, & Pzgr.40/45, so it does appear some Pzgr.40 production for the 7.5 cm KwK. L/48, 7.5 cm Kw.K. 42 L/70 & 8.8 cm K.wK.43 L/71 contined till the end of the war albeit in small quanaties.

Their are also several German Tank crew AAR's that state usage of Pzgr.40 vs Jumbo's & IS-2 as late as Jan 1945 as well, Ie, 1 PzKpfw IV claimed 2 IS-2's destroyed with front turret penetrations, in Jan 1945 by use of Pzgr.40 etc.

Regards, John Waters