++SPOILER++ Does the AI . . . cheat?

[Guest Blacksilver]

. . . albeit poorly?

Setting up VoT for 3rd time, 2nd run as Amis. Played the default 1st time, so let the AI position its troops. I put 2 platoons on my far left, visible at the end of the road; 1 Sherman on the left in overwatch position. Other 2 platoons and 1 tank out of sight, behind the crest in the right middle.

When Turn 1 comes up, I see that the AI put all four of its bunkers over on my left, with LOS on the road. As the game progressed, it turned out he had 2 schreck teams and both mortars over there, too. The infantry gun was on the extreme right edge, in the forest.

I thought this was such an odd set up that the AI had to be cheating, albeit poorly. Of course, I switched my axis of advance, and went straight down the middle in complete defilade from most of his heavy weapons. Turned into a fairly easy win -- AI surrendered on Turn 20 with a 79-21 score.

(Gotta give the German infantry in town kudos, though -- they sat and fired point blank down the muzzles of two tanks without breaking for nearly two minutes!!)

------------------

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>On May 8 Nazi Germany surrendered unconditionally. We were told this momentous news . . . "So what" was typical of the remarks I heard around me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

--Pfc. Eugene Sledge, K/3/5, Okinawa

[This message has been edited by Blacksilver (edited 05-15-2000).]

[KiwiJoe]

Ive noticed similar things. I was playing germans in VOT and placed all my mg pillboxs on the left around the town, and most of my infantry. After 3-4 turns it was obvious that the yanks placed NO infantry on the left and attacked on the right flank then swept across to the left from behind my pillboxs. Whilst this was a primo tactic on their behalf I see no way they could have planned this attack without knowing my placements before they attacked.

[Lanzfeld]

I have read that Steve promises the AI does NOT cheat.

[Kraut]

I've noticed some weird "cheating" going on too.

I was playing VoT as germans and at turn 17 my panther showed up. I parked him on hill 209 (think that's the right hill, the one iwht the big flag), and fired at the americans for four or five turns. Then i though "this is boring" and ordered my panther to charge ahead down the road, through the village and make a left turn and head down the road to that little intersection.

Here's the weird thing. A sherman which was fireing at my infantry for more than six turns (two turns or so before the panther showed) started to move shortly after the turn started. It moved in an ideal spot to take out my panther from the side at close range. It felt like the tank knew exactly where my panther would be at any time and therefore could place itself right.

I think the AI calculates its' moves by analyzing your orders.

I'll just have to stop issueing those long, complex movement orders and move my troops and tanks in small steps.

Thank god for multiplayer ... lol

MK

[Lee]

It seems very unlikely the AI cheats, Steve and Charles have said it

doesn't and they ought to know if it does or not.

[Fionn]

Quite simply put... The AI doesn't cheat.

Just like any human player it sometimes has a unit in the right place at the right time.

It is merely a human rationalisation to seek to "blame" the AI for somehow anticipating and thwarting your "brilliant plan" when, in fact, it just happened to get a little lucky.

[TZEENCH]

I have my questions about this AI? when the germans get reinforced on turn 17ish. 5 seconds later, I mean 5 *#@ing seconds the ai is pounding the new units with 105 and 81 rounds. WTF their insnt any los to anything excpt the friendly units on hill 209. how could any body call in acurate art 1 min in advance to plaster your poor infantry platoon. I lost 3 squads do to that pounding.

Not to mention the complete way the ai will place smoke at the exact time to blind you before you kill there last sherman (he,he,he)

That panther g killed their whole platoon, 3 in one turn, he was inturn hit 7 times all glancing off the front armour, One bouncing into the american unit on a far hill, (had to watch that over again. HEHE )

[Guest Zulu1]

From James Bond, Goldfinger I think;

Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action.

Run the scenario 5 or 6 times to see if the AI "cheating" happens consistantly. If it does, then their is a problem.

[ChrisPick]

And remember the number of times it does things that it would never do if it knew where your troops are? Those successful ambushes that made you feel all warm inside?

Nope, the AI don't cheat, but it certainly ain't dumb...

Don't forget the FOW either, just because you never saw the unit that spotted you, doen't mean he didn't spot you! =)

And if you play with FOW off, then all bets are off, as just like you, the AI knows where ALL your units are from the word go...

Cheers,

Chris

-- CM Beta team -- (And yes, I did have a really great ambush last night where a single 88mm AT gun, concealed in a wood on the flank of a large battlefield, destroyed 5 churchills over the course of 2 turns, before losing to 14" naval artillery... =)

-- Editted for speeling

-- And again

[This message has been edited by ChrisPick (edited 05-15-2000).]

[This message has been edited by ChrisPick (edited 05-15-2000).]

[Kraut]

Kinda hard to define cheating anyways.

All i'm saying is that the AI apparently seems to use my movement plots in it's calculations for the next turn. These weird things happen ever so often, as well as "stupid" AI behaviour.

MK

[Guest Pham]

Kraut,

Maybe the Sherman moving to where your Panther was heading was not quite coincidence, but maybe it wasn't cheating by having the AI plot it's moves by scanning your plotted moves. Maybe the AI saw the Panther charge and moved the Sherman in to intercept and just happened to catch it where it did. If you saw a Panther making a break for the village, wouldn't you want to take advantage of the cover the buildings provide to jockey a Sherman in for a nice, clean, short range side shot?

So far, I've not seen any evidence the AI plays anthing other than a fair game. I've had it move two platoons into a cross fire between two machine gun bunkers, an anti-tank bunker, an anti-infantry gun, and numerous squads of unshaken soldiers. I've had it move one Sherman at the town, brushing a building with a shreck in it(and getting killed in the process), then throw two other Shermans in reverse and start pounding the building from out of the shrecks effective range. If it cheated, it wouldn't be doing these things(would have avoided the trap, and would have started pounding the building from a distance without sacrificing the first tank).

[Guest Mirage2k]

TZEENCH:

I doubt very much that the AI plans to catch your reinforcements under its arty in advance. Remember, that hill is the Americans' main objective...it makes sense to pound it, even if they don't know what's up there.

-Andrew

Survivor: AP US History Exam

[Guest Big Time Software]

The AI does NOT cheat.

Charles

[Kraut]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pham:

Kraut,

Maybe the Sherman moving to where your Panther was heading was not quite coincidence, but maybe it wasn't cheating by having the AI plot it's moves by scanning your plotted moves. Maybe the AI saw the Panther charge and moved the Sherman in to intercept and just happened to catch it where it did. If you saw a Panther making a break for the village, wouldn't you want to take advantage of the cover the buildings provide to jockey a Sherman in for a nice, clean, short range side shot?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And maybe the easterbunny does exist?!

Maybe i didn't make myself clear here, though i thought i did.

Let me try again ...

My panther and the sherman were sitting there shooting merrily at enemy infantry for a number of turns. Then, i gave the order to move my panther through the village, take a left and spot at the little intersection. The sherman came down from the hill near the village towards the road. The reason i wanted to put the panther there was beacuse this sherman was on the other side of the hill.

Point is, the sherman started to move at about the same time my panther did and placed itself at the very best spot at the very best time to nail my panther in the side.

Just seemed quite fishy. It wasn't like the AI saw my panther move and THEN ordered his tank to react, it was at the same time.

MK

[Guest Big Time Software]

Pure luck. Plain and simple. I have found myself in just that sort of position every so often (ask Martin about his M4 105 in the Quick Battle we played ).

So let me state this again, quite clearly. The AI does not cheat in any way shape or form. That means that it has NO extra knowledge about ANYTHING that the player doesn't have available (within FoW of course) to him. The AI does the Setup and Orders Phases just like the human (i.e. in one lump sum BEFORE things are resolved), so it is ABSOLUTELY impossible for it to cheat even if we wanted it to (and we don't) or as a result of a bug or something.

So either we are lying or it isn't cheating. There is no middle ground here. Take your pick, but I'll tell you one thing... we won't take kindly to someone calling us liars.

Charles has faced this sort of baseless speculation in the past with his flight games, and NONE of them cheated either. Guess that is the downside of actually being able to code up an AI that doesn't need to cheat

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 05-15-2000).]

[Jochen]

I played VOT always as the US. The last time, the German setup was massed up on the left side, with all their bunkers.

Easy thing to go along the valley in the middle or over the forest on the right - the AI is not cheating!!!

But i have another question - as i heard, tanks and infanterie are not connected in CM-AI. So, how does the AI do its job? - ´Cause, i., as a human will order my troops with the knowledge of all squads and tanks - if the AI has not this knowledge (only the informations of LOS), it is a big difference to the human player. (Sorry my bad english, i hope you understand what i mean).

Jochen

[Guest Blacksilver]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jochen:

I played VOT always as the US. The last time, the German setup was massed up on the left side, with all their bunkers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I posted another thread that tested the AI's set up. In 15 different games with three different U.S. set ups, the AI always massed its forces on the left, leaving the central road pretty much free of heavy weapons fire. The AT pillbox was nearly always set up just to the left of or behind the pond on the left side of the map; the MG pillbox and wooden bunkers were usually to the extreme left edge, sometimes lined up one behind the other up the rise.

No, no cheating. But not an endorsement of the AI's tactical abilities, either.

------------------

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>On May 8 Nazi Germany surrendered unconditionally. We were told this momentious news . . . "So what" was typical of the remarks I heard around me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

--Pfc. Eugene Sledge, K/3/5, Okinawa

[Lee]

I find that odd, I thought there was more of a variability factor in

the AI's setup choices.