Guest jaja Posted December 10, 2000 Share Posted December 10, 2000 Combat Mission has zero degrees for the Sherman front turret, but the actual slope is 30 degrees for the 75mm and 10 for the 76mm. You can see this in nearly every photo and picture of the Sherman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jaja Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 Hello? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AdamL Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 Give it time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob/1 Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 Ya let the man think! Shermans hum well don't know much about american tanks don't ever...well ok once a day in CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 Um, that's just not true. I've seen several Shermans up close, and the front turret isn't sloped at all. I'd be curious to see your sources for this? ------------------ Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh. [This message has been edited by Chupacabra (edited 12-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 Having examined some pictures up close, and seeing them in real life and using memory, there is a slight slope in the turret, but it's countered by the very large gun mantlet which covers nearly all of the front of the turret. IT is shaped rather like this.. )== hehe. Even that curve is slight so I think BTS decided to even it out and make it a 0 degree slope. PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 Yes the data says the turret for most Sherman models is 76mm@30'. http://www.onwar.com/tanks/usa/index.htm However it appears CM only mentions the Mantlet specs under 'Turret'. Looking head on(from photos) there are large areas of the turret not covered by the mantlet, I'm not sure how CM deals with that. IIRC someone else brought a similar issue up just recently with pictures to better describe it, perhaps it was resolved there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 The Easy Eight looks like zero slope…64mm/0. Jumbo is apparently 152mm/12. Most other common models look like 76mm @ 30 degrees…M4a1, M4a2, and M4a3…all at 76mm/30 cast. Mantle is round in most common models. Interesting. I reckon the mantle makes up at least 50% of the frontal face of the M4's turret. http://www.wargamer.org/GvA/weapons/usa_turret4.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JoePrivate: Yes the data says the turret for most Sherman models is 76mm@30'. http://www.onwar.com/tanks/usa/index.htm However it appears CM only mentions the Mantlet specs under 'Turret'. Looking head on(from photos) there are large areas of the turret not covered by the mantlet, I'm not sure how CM deals with that. IIRC someone else brought a similar issue up just recently with pictures to better describe it, perhaps it was resolved there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ahh.. Take a look at the Mantle slope... 90 degrees. Or in our case 0 degrees. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 mantlet is typically round on the Sherman. Round doesnt really equate to 90 degrees or 0 degrees (depending on your frame of reference). If you think in terms of equivelent thickness at a given angle of attack...round will typically present a thicker equivelent armour plate at almost all impact angles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 A quick sketch to show that a round mantle has a continuously changing slope. Apparent armour thickness will vary over the whole face of the mantle depending upon angle of attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 Either way, the number given in the armor chart is just an approxamate figure. The armor thickness and slope of the turret varies from place to place, and are modeled accordingly. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 109 Gustav: Either way, the number given in the armor chart is just an approxamate figure. The armor thickness and slope of the turret varies from place to place, and are modeled accordingly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Is that the case? Or does BTS just provide a single value for a given "face" (averaged or whatever)? I am guessing the second. I seem tor ecall when this arguemnt was raised about the TIger amntlet, BTS mentioned that they were going to do some special-case coding for that example. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: Is that the case? Or does BTS just provide a single value for a given "face" (averaged or whatever)? I am guessing the second. I seem tor ecall when this arguemnt was raised about the TIger amntlet, BTS mentioned that they were going to do some special-case coding for that example. Jeff Heidman <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> But that case was different armor thickness at different points but the same slope. This situation apparently is stating that there are different slopes at different points. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jaja Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 Look at the Panther. Its turret has a mantle too, but the slope given is for the turret. BTS seems to ignore the mantle when taking into account armor slope. Therefore, the Sherman slope must be revised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jaja: Look at the Panther. Its turret has a mantle too, but the slope given is for the turret. BTS seems to ignore the mantle when taking into account armor slope. Therefore, the Sherman slope must be revised.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Do a search, short ans, Panther's mantle, even the StuGs pig mantle is taken into account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jaja Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 If the Panther mantle is taken into account, it doesn't show in the CM statistics. They have the Panther slope at 10 degrees which is what the front turret is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jaja: If the Panther mantle is taken into account, it doesn't show in the CM statistics. They have the Panther slope at 10 degrees which is what the front turret is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It’s been said before and it’ll be said again and again and again and again, the statistics in that box are approximations. Apparently going from what BTS has stated the figures are not used within the calculations carried out by the engine. Again do a search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jaja Posted December 14, 2000 Share Posted December 14, 2000 The Panther and the Sherman have mantles. The Sherman has a slope of 30 and the Panther 10. How can the statistics be approxamate if the Panther is more then the Sherman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted December 14, 2000 Share Posted December 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jaja: The Panther and the Sherman have mantles. The Sherman has a slope of 30 and the Panther 10. How can the statistics be approxamate if the Panther is more then the Sherman?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> FFs the game does not use the statistics as they stand in the unit detail box. They are 'rules of thumb' to help the player use their units. [This message has been edited by Bastables (edited 12-13-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jaja Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 Thanks for the reply. Two more things I don't understand: Why are some units accurate in the statistic box and others are not? If the statistics of units in the statistic box are not exact then why not make all the slopes 0, 30, or 60 to make it easier to determine if a weapon can penetrate (since penetration values are given for those slopes)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 Do a search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 Jaja, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Why are some units accurate in the statistic box and others are not?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> They are consistant. 109 Gustav and Bastables are slightly incorrect. The armor values and slopes are what the game uses internally with one exception (rounded mantlets). However, the armor pentration tables are "rules of thumb". For calculation conservation reasons, CM's armor modeling is not as detailed as we would like it to be. This will not change for CM2 (Eastern Front), but will absolutely change for CM II (the future rewrite of the game engine). Because of this, there are subtle differences between tanks that are not simulated. In this case, CM assumes that the mantlet takes up nearly all the frontal space of a turret. Obviously, this is an abstraction that has its exceptions, but subtle and significant. Charles tells me that the Shrmans with 75s are treated like Panthers. There is new code in CM 1.1 to treat rounded mantlets in a more sophisticated way than before. I don't know the details, so don't expect an answer if you ask for them Charles says he has also changed the display (in the details box) to make this more clear than it is now (which is not clear at all ). Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 12-15-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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