schott Posted February 7, 2000 Share Posted February 7, 2000 I have never been in the military and have a question for the all the military folks out there. Is there some acceptable level of attrition and beyond that you simply call off the operation? I guess it depends on the importance of the objective. I am new to TacOps and have won a few and lost a few. I have mostly run the "team" scenarios so far. It is not uncommon for me to have 50% or greater attrition. Perhaps I am just a rookie. I have set the OPFOR for thermal sights in all my runs, I don't imagine that helps. ------------------ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MajorH Posted February 7, 2000 Share Posted February 7, 2000 As you said, it depends on the importance of the objective. >It is not uncommon for me to have 50% or >greater attrition. This is mainly due to TacOps needing to provide a satisfying recreational gaming experience. In order to be a 'game', the typical scenario needs to provide a tactical situation where both sides have a reasonable chance of winning. In real life a commander would usually try to avoid situations where there was only a 50/50 chance of prevailing or where huge casualties would likely result. Another thing to consider is that in real life a lot of the casualties shown in a one or two hour TacOps battle would not be permanently lost. Much damaged equipment would be recovered and repaired. Many slightly wounded, or dazed, or demoralized troops, etc., would recover and be returned to duty fairly rapidly. ------------------ Best regards, Major H majorh@mac.com 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darroch Posted February 8, 2000 Share Posted February 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MajorH: As you said, it depends on the importance of the objective. >It is not uncommon for me to have 50% or >greater attrition. This is mainly due to TacOps needing to provide a satisfying recreational gaming experience. [snip] Another thing to consider is that in real life a lot of the casualties shown in a one or two hour TacOps battle would not be permanently lost. Much damaged equipment would be recovered and repaired. Many slightly wounded, or dazed, or demoralized troops, etc., would recover and be returned to duty fairly rapidly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Just to add my two cents the the original poster's, one of the things that struck me (as a civilian) after my first few games was the sheer carnage of the game; somehow those little skull and crossbones are chilling in a way that flying demon intestines in first-person shooters are not. It was really pretty sobering, and makes me glad that I only have to deal with the game's subject matter in a detached, intellectual, hobbyistic way . And speaking of most commanders behaving sensibly, that scenario with the hastily mounted heliborne raid on the terrorist training camp scenario has got to be about the most gotched-up mess since the charge of the Light Brigade... I've been banging my head against that one for days . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Sterrett Posted February 8, 2000 Share Posted February 8, 2000 Regarding the helo assault: Use your snipers to kill the anti-aircraft defences, and to spot for artillery. The artillery can land smoke to cover your landings. Prepped this way, you can get in and out pretty effectively. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MajorH Posted February 8, 2000 Share Posted February 8, 2000 The keys to the scenario are the seemingly least powerful units in the Blue force - the snipers. ------------------ Best regards, Major H majorh@mac.com 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scout_42MDP Posted February 8, 2000 Share Posted February 8, 2000 As far as I'm concerned, if I suffer 25% casualties in a solitaire game, I lost. It might not be included in the scope of the game, but I always try to keep my forces intact for the "next" operation. Too many losses is usually a result of improper use of support and recon assets. The military of late definitely tries to keep casualties to the bare minimum. As an example, during a training excersize in Hohenfels, Germany in 1990,my battalion commander was relieved of duty permanently because of losses to the scout platoon alone. He was relieved "just in case" we had to do the real thing someday. Scouts Out! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assassin 6 Posted February 14, 2000 Share Posted February 14, 2000 The OPFOR will usually call off an attack when the force ratio is no longer favorable, this means about 2:1 and they will temporarily halt till they can bring up more forces. Another measure is they will stop when attritted to 50%. For the US it is much harder to say. We tend to go down to nothing in training and simulation (at least until a few years ago). I would think if you get beat below 75% you have lost, regardless of victory conditions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltcmayer Posted February 16, 2000 Share Posted February 16, 2000 The point at which you can usually no longer continue an attack or successfully defend is called a "culmination point." It is usually defined as that point at which you no longer have a favorable force ratio. That is, the relative combat power slips below 1:1 if you are on the attack. Defense is a little trickier to figure. The Russians used the same idea. If the attacking force no longer has a favorable force ratio (drops below 1:1) the attacking force will usually adopt a hasty defense and prepare to pass through follow-on forces -- or those follow on forces will seek to penetrate somewhere else. If you do things right in TF Gallagher, you can get to that favorable (for you) force ratio before the OPFOR suffers 80% losses. At that point, I usually end the game -- for both the sake of time and not to seem to bloody minded. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schott Posted February 16, 2000 Author Share Posted February 16, 2000 Thanks for all of the information. I am approximately 40 minutes into TF Gallagher-1 right now and will see if I can get to the 1:1 ratio. With some scenarios I have attempted to retreat after being beat-up only to be beat-up some more because of the belated nature of the retreat. I have a lot to learn. ------------------ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltcmayer Posted February 17, 2000 Share Posted February 17, 2000 Withdrawal under pressure is the hardest tactical operation. When the French army collapsed in 1871, an officer on the Prussian General Staff is reported to have said to v. Moltke that he was the greatest general ever, even greater than Napoleon. v. Moltke responde that he couldn'e accept that praise, because he (v. Moltke) never had to retreat. The implication is that greatness is only truly tested in mastering that situation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schott Posted March 13, 2000 Author Share Posted March 13, 2000 I'm going to reactivate the Attrit file. Does anyone have any advice on Team Murray? After four attempts I have yet to crack that nut and each time I have had serious attrit. In all my runs OPFOR has thermals and advanced weaponary. In the last run I managed to get all my units into the woods without any losses but couldn't clear it out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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