Formerly Babra Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 I finally looked over the vehicles that will be included in CM and was surprised to see a listing for the Sherman IIC. I stand to be corrected by anyone with figures, but it was my understanding that the IC and VC were the most common 17 pounder variants, with Sherman II's (M4A1) being somewhat rare. Anyone got any insights on numbers of Sherman IIs in Commonwealth service? [This message has been edited by Formerly Babra (edited 06-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Peltz Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 The I- and VC were the most common, but I have seen the odd pix of a IIC (cast hull welded to chassis), but I can't find any numbers for how many anywhere. I found that the Brits converted something like 600 M4 chassis, (they even gave 160 to the Americans apparently) but no figures on which ones were converted. [This message has been edited by Kevin Peltz (edited 06-17-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von shrad Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 Babra, do you have a link to that list? Thanks, VS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Peltz Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 It's in the CMHQ Annex under "Final Vehicle List" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyamoto Musashi Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 Sorry, my main reference guide only lists the 600 Shermans that were converted, but doesn't break them down by variant... although there is a multi-view painting of an example of the Sherman II along with its specs. If anyone wants the pic file, I'll scan it... ------------------ In fighting and in everyday life you should be determined though calm. Meet the situation without tenseness yet not recklessly, your spirit settled yet unbiased. An elevated spirit is weak and a low spirit is weak. Do not let the enemy see your spirit. -- M.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von shrad Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 Thanks Kevin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted June 17, 2000 Author Share Posted June 17, 2000 According to Hunnicutt in "Sherman - A History of the American Medium Tank" Britain received 2,096 M4 (Sherman I) but only 942 M4A1 (Sherman II). I have only ever seen pictures of the Sherman VC (very common) and Sherman Hybrid IC (fairly common). I've never seen pics of any other C-armed Shermans. I think someone may have confused the cast front hull on the Hybrid IC with the cast hull of the Sherman II. Either that or the Sherman IIA (76mm gun M1A1 w/out muzzle brake)has been confused for a Firefly. Comments from BTS? It's far too late to beg for changes, but some clarification would be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 And to add further confusion to this, the book: BRITISH AND AMERICAN TANKS OF WORLD WAR II (The Complete Illustrated History of British, American, and Commonwealth Tanks, 1939-1945 [ARCO Publishing Company, NY] lists on p. 130 the following British designations for Shermans - Sherman I Standard M4 Sherman Hybrid I late-production Detroit-built M4 with combination cast/rolled hull front Sherman IB M4 (105mm) Sherman IBY M4 (105mm) w/ HVSS - late 1945 Sherman II M4A1 (cast hull) Sherman IIA M4A1 (76mm) Sherman IIC (Firefly) M4A1 rearmed w/ 17pdr Sherman III M4A2 Sherman IIIAY M4A2 w/ 76mm, wet stowage and HVSS - late 1944 Sherman IV M4A3 Sherman IVA M4A3 w/ 76mm, wet stowage and HVSS Sherman IVB M4A3 (105mm) Sherman IVC (Firefly) M4A3 rearmed w/ 17pdr Sherman V M4A4 Sherman VC (Firefly) M4A4 rearmed w/ 17pdr, most Firefly conversions were on M4A4 Sherman VII M4A6 Few, if any delivered to Britain Sherman V (Rocket) Field modification By Coldstream Guards to provide twin launchers for 60lb aircraft rockets (from Typhoon aircraft) on side of Sherman V turret. Some so fitted were Sherman VC Amongst the photos of British Shermans are a IC Hybrid Firefly, IVC Firefly, and VC Firefly. Note, the list above does not include all the variant "funnies", as there are a lot of those! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted June 18, 2000 Author Share Posted June 18, 2000 That helps, Marty. Thanks. Still, given the numbers, I would be surprised if the IICs outnumbered the ICs. Actually, it's not that confusing. M4= Sherman I M4 with composite hull = Sherman Hybrid I M4A1=Sherman II M4A2=Sherman III M4A3=Sherman IV M4A4=Sherman V If it is armed with anything other than the standard 75mm gun the tank carries a letter designation: A=76mm B=105mm C=17 Pounder If it has HVSS suspension it gets a Y at the end of its designation. So a British M4A2 with HVSS and a 76mm gun is a Sherman IIIAY. Piece of cake really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 18, 2000 Share Posted June 18, 2000 'The British Soldier, Volume 2, Organisation, Armament and Vehicles' gives the following information which supports your figures, Formerly Babra: US Name Brit Name Gun Numbers Delivered M4* Sherman I 75mm 2,096 M4A1** Sherman II 75mm 942 M4A2* Sherman III 75mm 5,041 M4A4* Sherman V 75mm 7,163*** M4105* Sherman IB 105mm 593 M4A176.2**Sherman IIA 76.2mm 1,330 *Welded hull **Cast hull ***The base for the 'Firefly' conversion Only a dozen each of the M4A3 and M4A2 76mm were delivered for trials. Above is quoted direct from the book. Must say I was surprised at how many 76mm M4A1's were sent. Also it ignores the non-M4A4s converted to Firefly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted June 19, 2000 Author Share Posted June 19, 2000 bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts