Waypoints and LOS Tool

[Parson Larson]

I love CM, but I find it very hard to judge LOS as I am ploting movement. I often can not judge whether or not the final location is in the best place. Sometimes I plot units to move to a location I think is Hull down or a good firing position only to find I miss judged. I would find it very helpful to be able to use the LOS Tool from waypoints and final movement points so I know the location is appropriate for my purposes. I don't think this would be too big of an advantage for the player because units naturally can "see what they can see," as a player however I have very little idea what I can see from a given location.

[Lawyer]

Yeah, I have the same problem. Does somebody have a good way to get LOS without over-exposing yourself?

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Res ipsa loquitur

[Echo]

This is another topic thats been talked about at great length. Try a search.

[Kevin Peltz]

Briefly, it was decided that checking LOS from waypoints gives more info than would have been available in reality- so you can't do it. I plot my paths, and then move along them at the 1 view, scanning left and right as I go. At the final destination, I check the position as best I can, again using the 1 view. Judging good defilade and hull-down positions comes only with a lot of practice.

[Parson Larson]

I have read the past posts and I am still not convinced that this is not a needed feature. Here are my reasons: 1) It is very time consuming to move in 1 level move down all your movement paths. This is a game crying out loud, what is fun about this?! I find it a pain in the neck. 2) It is pointless anyway, because the manual even admits that the graphics are only an approximant representation of the underlying 3D model. It advises players to use the LOS tool to get true LOS. 3) 3D games are not true “3D,” they are 2D images draw to give the impression of 3D. Many people, myself included, find this disorienting. I have given up trying to play 3D shooters and sims for this very reason. My brain is just wired incorrectly I guess. This places me at a distinct disadvantage to other those who have no problem adjusting to this artificial environment. I think that the “Hull Down” debate demonstrates that I am not the only one who is having difficulties with this.

BT would be will advised to do something about this problem beyond just saying, “Practice, you will get the hang of it.” I have practiced and I am not getting the hang of it. Based on my negative experience with LOS I almost didn’t purchased the game. I am sure others have tried the demo and rejected the game for this very reason. This is too bad, because it is such a great game. It would be an even better game if it offered a little more help to the “3D” impaired. Since the LOS Tool seems to be a dead issue. Let me offer two alternatives.

Alternative One: Allow the “locking” of the camera to the waypoints and unlike normal “locking” the arrow keys actually move the waypoint so that its placement can be fine-tuned. The camera height and placement should be exactly were the LOS for firing would be located at so that you could adjust firing positions “just right.”

Alternative Two: Another possible solution to this problem is to program the AI to exercise independent judgment carry out movement orders (say up to 5 meters to each side of the movement path) to take maximize advantage of the terrain. This would also solve the Hull Down problem. I don’t like micro managing my units anyway, but would prefer giving them general orders and let them carry them out to the best of their ability. This solution seems to fit well into the spirit of the game.

Humbly Submitted by a “3D” Impaired Wargamer

[Sten]

Look at the terrain using view 2.

Once you know approx where you want to be, plot an approx path in view 3.

Ctrl-Click on the final waypoint. Go to view 1.

What you see now is what your unit will see from this spot. Even for the 3D impared it should now be obvious if the final waypoint should be moved.

Once the v1.03 patch is out, you can make this even better by pressing Shift-J to make the camera rotate on a point instead of a disc.

Try it and see if it helps.

Sten

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Keep your whisky on the rocks and your tanks on the roll.

[Joe Shaw]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>3D games are not true “3D,” they are 2D images draw to give the impression of 3D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually they ARE in 3D, and you can prove it by creating 3D Stereo Views. I've done it and it creates a pretty good image with very clear depth to it. I'm working on the method now and may try to get Matt to publish some on his page if there's any interest.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Allow the “locking” of the camera to the waypoints <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can do that too, just create your waypoint, then put the cursor on the waypoint, hold the Ctrl key and click. Now your viewpoint is right on the waypoint and you can rotate around that. It won't allow you to move the waypoint with your view but that's a pretty minor issue, IMO. I just find a spot I like, go to the "5" or "6" view and move the waypoint there.

Joe

[Pfalz XII]

Hmmm, while I disagree about the need for an LOS tool at each waypoint, I sorta like the idea of a camera lock or view which would track along your chosen path. This would give you a good troops eye view of the terrain you propose to travel and eliminate a lot of the guesswork with the control-click method.

I also like the idea in alternative #2 of allowing your troops to use independent judgment to find the best terrain within 2 or 3 meters (less than 10 feet) of your chosen movement path. Unfortunately, my guess is that even state of the art pathfinding AI is not yet up to this task. Something for CM3 or 4 maybe?

[Mark IV]

your viewpoint is right on the waypoint and you can rotate around that

...which is already pushing the realism envelope, and therein is the problem. This regards the fine line between combat sim and war game.

Real people and vehicles don't create "waypoints" to move a couple hundred meters- they just go there. They cannot see what they're going to be able to see, before they get there.

They can guess pretty intelligently, but the only way to be sure is to go there (or send someone else there first).

The waypoints are required to convey your wishes to the units, but pre-visiting them for FOV purposes is about as far as I would want to take supernatural effects. Drawing a projected LOS line is just going too far.

This has some impact on the great hull-down move debate. How could you designate a target spot (relative to your desired hull-down position), if you have no LOS to it in the first place? Answer- it would have to be spotted by a friendly first, or be a prominent terrain feature (road) that would be on any map.

[Smoker]

Also be aware of the camera tilt (shift a/z)while checking LOS from a waypoint. I like to tilt up and down while scoping out a potential position. I get a better feel for the position.

I was under the impression Shift J (rotate on point) was already in 1.01. It's listed with the "Hot Keys". I haven't played with it yet. I got used to the circular rotation.

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Smoker out.

[guachi]

I never got 1.01 because my CD shipped with 1.02. And the Shift-J camera lick is DEFINITELY in 1.02 as I have used it. It is a little disorienting after getting used to the way the game previously panned around the battlefield.

Jason

[Guest Scott Clinton]

I know "shift-j" IS in v1.01 because its all I use.

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[BorderBill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV:

Real people and vehicles don't create "waypoints" to move a couple hundred meters- they just go there. They cannot see what they're going to be able to see, before they get there.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In a combat setting, infantrymen do not usually move in a straight line for one or two hundred meters. They move from covered point to covered point pausing to observe their surroundings as they move. To move in a straight line is a quick way to become a casualty. Vehicles also often make quick dashes from point to point between areas of cover and concealment.