Sewers in towns

[russellmz]

How often were sewers used in urban combat? And is this unreasonable to model in CM?

I read in Stephen Ambrose's book that the GI's sealed all the manhole covers in Aachen because the Germans used them for counterattacks.

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"They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush

"They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show

[Wanderer]

Wouldn't it be great if some soldiers refused to go down these sewers on the grounds that they smelled to bad. This would add in a whole new dimension to soldier moral

[Pham911]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by russellmz:

How often were sewers used in urban combat? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't think it was used that much in the west. I know that the Germans did it in the east, notably in Stalingrad when then Russians would infiltrate German lines at night.

There are a couple of problems with using sewers that make it impractical(and not worthy of detail in CM);

First, it's wicked undignified

Second, you only have large sewers in very large cities. Smaller towns will have smaller piping, if they even have a sewer system.

Third, even the largest sewer system can't move divisions and such through them(though the exit sceen would be clown car funny)

Fourth, in a sewer you can go forwards or back, and if you just straight walked quite a ways and a hidden machine gun ahead opens fire both directions suck.

Fifth, I believe the Germans only did it to attempt to stop the Russians before they appeared behind them. The Russians only did it to get behind enemy lines. Nobody, but nobody wants to get into a shooting war in a pipe.

Sixth, it's wicked undignified.

[Wayne]

The issue of sewer movement has to be addressed in CM2. Somehow they have to allow Russians to appear out of nowhere behind the German positions to simulate sewer movement. However, sewer movement will need to be limited or else people will use it in an unrealistic manner. Just my opinion.

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Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight.

[David Aitken]

For the reasons detailed by Pham, I don't think there would be much point in modelling the sewers themselves. However, if the use of sewers were deemed to have been common, there could be an option to place a few exit points in a specific scenario, and when you start off you could allocate some of your men to the sewers. Then after a slightly variable length of time, they would pop up at the exit points. There could also be a chance of them not appearing, to simulate the possibility of an ambush.

David

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They lost all of their equipment and had to swim in under machine gun fire. As they struggled in the water, Gardner heard somebody say, "Perhaps we're intruding, this seems to be a private beach."

[Michlos]

I am no expert in infantry tactics use, I can only relate to what i have read in previous posts and in other literature but here goes.

The use of underground tactics was not as wide spread during WWII as it have been in later conflicts. In the European theater there is just not that many places that could have been used. Compare this to lets say the Vietnam war where both VC and American "tunnel rats" used tunnel complexes the size of many football fields to ambush enemies and to hide in.

The only place i could really see this being used in CM would be in cellars. As far as i know the only place where cellars where widely used by troops where on the Eastern front (Stalingrad for instance).

Then again, i might be way off on this...

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[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michlos:

As far as i know the only place where cellars where widely used by troops where on the Eastern front (Stalingrad for instance).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, there were plenty of cellars on the Western Front and they got used when the need arose. Mainly as aid stations and command posts, but also by anyone wanting to get as far from descending shells and bombs as possible.

Michael

[Pham911]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Oh, there were plenty of cellars on the Western Front and they got used when the need arose. Mainly as aid stations and command posts, but also by anyone wanting to get as far from descending shells and bombs as possible.

Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is true, though I think foxholes offer more protection than wood frame houses during shelling(not that this has anything to do with the subject, just that it's a better idea to be in a smaller hole outside than in a cellar(large hole) due to a lower profile and foxholes not having tons of wood and stuff that can fall on you).

Hiding in cellars was also something that was usually done during large scale artillery barrages, not small tactical shelling like in CM. It was a pre-battle self-preservation move, not an ambush tactic. The reason is, you don't want to engage the enemy from a small underground room with one enterance(unless the basement has potatos that you can mash up with that present the nice Waffen-SS soldier tossed down the stairs to you).

Sewers, cellars, and tunnels in non-WWII wars are below the scale of CM's squad level combat. It's not squad level, as only one or two men can enter them at a time, and it's not usually combat, but slaughter for whoever is slower to shoot.

[This message has been edited by Pham911 (edited 09-22-2000).]

[tss]

This has nothing to do with sewers but it popped to my mind from the cellars:

There's one new kind of building that I'd like to see in CM2: a cow shed. In Karelia (at least in those parts that were Finnish pre-1940 but in some extend in other parts also) cow sheds had generally two stories (as cows can't climb ladders too well they were on the ground floor). The walls of the first story were of stone and the upper floor had wooden walls. There were few small windows in the stone wall.

These kinds of cow sheds were very difficult to attack as they provided good cover and firing ports for MGs. Additionally the internals were quite open and the defender could rapidly switch windows.

My great uncle died while trying to clear Särkisyrjä village from enemies. The Soviet defence of the village was based in cow sheds that were positioned high on an open ridge.

- Tommi

[David Aitken]

The one-storey buildings in CM simulate real buildings of one or two storeys, and the two-storey buildings could be up to four storeys in reality.

David

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They lost all of their equipment and had to swim in under machine gun fire. As they struggled in the water, Gardner heard somebody say, "Perhaps we're intruding, this seems to be a private beach."

[This message has been edited by David Aitken (edited 09-22-2000).]

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss:

In Karelia (at least in those parts that were Finnish pre-1940 but in some extend in other parts also) cow sheds had generally two stories (as cows can't climb ladders too well they were on the ground floor). The walls of the first story were of stone and the upper floor had wooden walls. There were few small windows in the stone wall.

These kinds of cow sheds were very difficult to attack as they provided good cover and firing ports for MGs. Additionally the internals were quite open and the defender could rapidly switch windows.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is interesting. Several years ago, an acquaintance was showing me some snapshots he had taken while on vacation in Norway. While there, he had visited some distant relatives who owned and ran a swine farm. Some of the photos of the barn were exactly as you describe. Heavy stone walls for the first story; wood above. They were also exceedingly clean.

Michael

[ASL Veteran]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pham911:

Hiding in cellars was also something that was usually done during large scale artillery barrages, not small tactical shelling like in CM. It was a pre-battle self-preservation move, not an ambush tactic. The reason is, you don't want to engage the enemy from a small underground room with one enterance(unless the basement has potatos that you can mash up with that present the nice Waffen-SS soldier tossed down the stairs to you).

Sewers, cellars, and tunnels in non-WWII wars are below the scale of CM's squad level combat. It's not squad level, as only one or two men can enter them at a time, and it's not usually combat, but slaughter for whoever is slower to shoot.

[This message has been edited by Pham911 (edited 09-22-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is my understanding that the cellars in Stalingrad were not like cellars in the West and that they had small windows that you could look out of. In military terms they were more like bunkers with firing ports than rooms with only one entrance in or out of.