patboivin Posted July 14, 2000 Share Posted July 14, 2000 Stefan, who is also on this forum, sent me the following table: ARTILLERY Ammo Blast Cost Parity 75mm 20 39 94 0.4 = Blast/Cost 81mm MT 50 18 106 0.2 105mm 25 77 231 0.3 105mm VT 25 77 299 0.3 4.2 in MT (107mm) 20 72 177 0.4 4.5 in MT (114mm) 10 125 155 0.8 155mm 8 198 204 1.0 155mm VT 8 198 264 0.8 8" Howtzr (203mm) 307 8 in gun (203mm) 363 240 mm 348 Fighter Bomber 225 I don't know where he got it. If we look at the ratio, the mortar with the best bang for your buck is the 155mm. Why is the 82mm mortar so weak? And what would be the rating for the little 55mm mortars? With bunkers given a defensive rating of 500, how does that square with the offensive values here? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted July 14, 2000 Share Posted July 14, 2000 I am not sure I am reading your post correctly, but where does the ammo come in? The ammo is VERY limited on 155s whereas much more is allotted to 81mm mortar spotters (for example). ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted July 14, 2000 Share Posted July 14, 2000 Keep in mind you can't make a direct comparison to round explosive power based soley on calibre since two rounds could have the same diameter but one could have much more explosive and fragmentation potential. Just like a 22 LR round and a 223 caliber round (fired out of an M4) are nearly the same diameter but one has greatly more killing potential. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demoss Posted July 14, 2000 Share Posted July 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patboivin: Stefan, who is also on this forum, sent me the following table: (deleted) If we look at the ratio, the mortar with the best bang for your buck is the 155mm. Why is the 82mm mortar so weak? And what would be the rating for the little 55mm mortars? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, you've missed something. Most of these are not, in fact, mortars. Mortars do tend to have less explosive power for the caliber than other artillery. The US 4.2" is a mortar, but I believe it had a relatively large shell as mortars go, so it doesn't surprise me that only the 81s stand out as underperformers - you're comparing apples and oranges. If you put the German 210mm rocket on the same table, it may well stand out as well (don't know the numbers off the top of my head), also simply because it's a different kind of beast. If you want an example of a similar situation, just look at the different armor penetration power of various guns of the same bore - like, say, the 88mm PaK 43 (which, I think, went into the King Tiger as well) vs. the 88mm FlaK. There, projectile velocity (variations due primarily to different muzzle lengths) is the main issue. Mortars DO have their advantages - some of which just don't show up where FOs are concerned (they DO shine as on-map weapons - the portability is great compared to even an infantry gun). You will note that the 81mm mortar artillery gets many more rounds than the others in your table, though. As for 55mm, I'm not sure what you mean. The Germans had 50mm which were being phased out in 1943 and 1944, I believe, and may not even be in the game, the Brits had 2" (51mm), and the Amis had 60mm. All of these have blasts in the high single digits, I think, as on-map weapons (not sure about the 50, of course, as I can't even tell you for sure if it's represented). The British 2" is particularly nice for its smoke round. ------------------ -Doug [This message has been edited by demoss (edited 07-14-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 14, 2000 Share Posted July 14, 2000 There is also a question of response speed. In a fluid battle I would rather have a lot of highly responsive 81mm than a few laggard 155mm. The enemy might well have moved on by the time the barrage comes in. The german 50mm mortar is in the game, at least if you choose June 44 - it no longer is in in September. Blast 6, range 75-500m, max ammo 45, standard 30, cost 11. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted July 14, 2000 Share Posted July 14, 2000 Let me clarify a bit on what Pat said - the table I sent him listed the cost of purchase for American artillery spotters in April 1945. As I am working on a DYO, where by foe and I will purchase our own units, I decided to compare cost, to blast value and then add ammo. Now a US 81mm spotter cost 106 points with 50 of ammo - it has a blast value of 18. Firstly, the blast value is weak but that is probably a question of amount of explosive in the shell and that has been researched and documented in depth I beleive. Still, why is an 81mm MT so expensive comparatively speaking to other Spotters? If 81mm batteries were common and attached to Bat level could this not be translated into something more affordable? Sure you get plenty of ammo but aginst dug-in troops.... Bang (or blast) for point it would seem that the 155mm with 198 blast and costing 204 points is a better value even with only 8 of ammo because you will do serious damage even with two rounds. All this to ask BTS how the cost were determined (forgive me if there is a thread on this already)and how plentifulness is translated - by cheaper cost? Or rather by the scenario type i.e as an attacker, I get 1.5 more points that my foe? Just an FYI - APril 1945 German 81mm MT cost 73 points, has a blast value of 19 but has only 36 of ammo. Wonder where this one will go? ------------------ No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 14, 2000 Share Posted July 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stefan: Still, why is an 81mm MT so expensive comparatively speaking to other Spotters?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Response speed and ammo load-out come to mind. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted July 14, 2000 Share Posted July 14, 2000 I agree with Andreas. shhhh, not so loud, he'll hear you) While the big guns are great WHEN they hit, I'll take something that can hit a little less hard WHEN I need it than something that takes forever to finally get there. And in CM, a couple or three minutes is forever in many cases. If you have a dug in and stationary target that's one thing, but the ability to react is priceless. There Andreas, now tell those damned Ami paras of yours to BACK OFF! Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 14, 2000 Share Posted July 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe Shaw: There Andreas, now tell those damned Ami paras of yours to BACK OFF! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Chill man - they are just coming to deliver a personal thank-you note my Batallion CO has just scribbled. They'll throw it over when they get close enough - wrapped around a pineapple grenade. Do I actually have to shoot at these guys or are they just going to die from a heart-attack? ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted July 14, 2000 Share Posted July 14, 2000 You always hear the big guns when they come in... Agreed that in hot spots - good old 81mm MT with a quick response and plenty of ammo can be a life saver but that still doesn't answer the question of how the cost was determined. The quick response time has more to do with the 81mm MT batteries being attached or being organic to battalion level - because of this, shouldn't they be more affordable and still have quick response time...? In any case, each mm and response time has its own purpose and more importantly you need to know how to use them and for what. Looking foward for a game some day Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 14, 2000 Share Posted July 14, 2000 A game - when I have made my way through some of the current ones for sure. I understand why the 81mm is faster, and what I tried to say was that this quick reaction is the reason for the high price in relation to its blast effectiveness. Also the ammo load-out (being organic on a low level, they would have less conflicting demands). So I would assume that in quick battles, price for arty comes down to a combo of - blast effectiveness - reaction time (organic at what level) - ammo load-out (dependent on where it is organic again) Now I have not designed it, but I would be surprised if this is not the core of the reasoning behind it. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted July 14, 2000 Share Posted July 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Do I actually have to shoot at these guys or are they just going to die from a heart-attack?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I saw those brave lads of yours attempt to swarm over those old guys of mine ... interesting tactics, charge forward yelling something (Curahee?), stop, hide and then fall back. Do they teach that in Airborne School? BTW how's the weather over there by the bridge? Seems a tad stormy. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 14, 2000 Share Posted July 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe Shaw: TW how's the weather over there by the bridge? Seems a tad stormy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Just luring you in a trap harharhar ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted July 15, 2000 Share Posted July 15, 2000 Ammo loads are taken into consideration. "Rarity" is not. The US 81mm FO has a lot of ammo, so it's more expensive than some other FOs. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 15, 2000 Share Posted July 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Ammo loads are taken into consideration. "Rarity" is not. The US 81mm FO has a lot of ammo, so it's more expensive than some other FOs. Charles<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And response speed? ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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