Panicked crews and abandoned guns

[Jimmy 4 Eyes]

I have been playing the valley I am wondering why when playing as the Germans using the 150mm that when the inevitable bombardment comes from the American's arty that after my crew panicks and runs away they can't come back and operate the gun one the are "unpanicked". I could understand if the gun was damaged, but in this case there was never any direct shelling of the gun just close enough to scare my crew away. I was thinking that if the gun had some type of abandoned but undamaged then if the crew could be recooped and maybe a command unit could inspire them to go back to the gun they could rock and roll.

Anyways, overall the game is great and I can't wait till receive the full version.

[This message has been edited by Jimmy 4 Eyes (edited 05-25-2000).]

[Guest Robert/1]

Jimmy 4 eyes

You can only use an abbandon gun or tank if you are in a operation in the final game.

[TeAcH]

I have to agree with Jimmy on this one. If my field gun is damaged or destroyed, thats one thing. But if the crew for that gun panics and abandons the weapon, which itself is still battle ready, can't they be directed by a command unit to return to it and resume targetting units?("Get your asses back on that gun now!!...uh yessir!"). Perhaps we need a clear explanation of ABANDONED and how it is applied in this game.

Thanks,

TeAcH

[This message has been edited by TeAcH (edited 05-25-2000).]

[Guest Scott Clinton]

It is my understanding that when a crew abandons its weapons in a CM BATTLE they are basically through as a fighing force IN THAT BATTLE.

The crew 'broke' more or less, but have not started hauling arse for the rear areas...yet. But they have already decided that it is un-healthy to man that gun anymore and are cowering in a nearby ditch.

If you were playing this BATTLE as part of an OPERATION, then there would be a chance that the weapon could be re-crewed in subsequent BATTLES.

Panic, is just a temporary emotional state of crews/squads WITHIN a single BATTLE. The crew has not yet totally given up the will to fight.

Well, thats how I understand it anyway.

------------------

Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 05-26-2000).]

[Moriarty]

In the context of CM, the battle is really only 30 minutes to 40 minutes long. I think the theory is that it would be unlikely for a broken gun crew to regain their wits, change their boxers or whatever so that they could effectively go back to being sitting ducks within that time frame.

------------------

I'm drinkin' wine, I'm eatin' cheese and catching some rays, you know. — Oddball

[Mike D]

I'm sorry, but I think this crew panic thing and then never remanning there weapon stuff is a complete bunch of B***S**T. You mean to tell me real soldiers in real combat situations would abandon there weapons and then never think of returning to re-man them 100% of the time in the heat of battle! This is completely ludicrous. There has to be some probability that they would do so. I'd go so far as to stick my stupid long neck out and guess that half of the time they would! Especially if they hadn't even taken any damn casualties yet! So instead these guys that are now perfectly fine and basically only lightly armed are waiting around for the attacker to move up on them and take them out as I've seen happen to the German crews in VoT. Or better yet as I've seen happen several times now, pull this little stunt at the beginning of the scenario and then stand around doing nothing for the next half of an hour when it is readily apparent that they could easily just crawl/move back and reman their weapon since they've taken no casualties, weapon is not destroyed, artillery is not landing in the area, etc., etc. Let's get real people. Green troops might act like this, but not seasoned veteran troops!

Mikester out.

[This message has been edited by Mike D (edited 05-26-2000).]

[Guest Scott Clinton]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm sorry, but I think this crew panic thing and then never remanning there weapon stuff is a complete bunch of B***S**T. You mean to tell me real soldiers in real combat situations would abandon there weapons and then never think of returning to re-man them 100% of the time in the heat of battle! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It appears that you still don't understand the difference between crews that "Panic" and crews that have "Abandoned" their weapons.

What you stated in you last post (and I quoted) is just plain wrong. "Panicked" crews CAN and WILL (I have seen it) re-man their weapons DURING A SINGLE BATTLE. Please re-read the pervious posts I made.

But, a crew that has reached such a HIGH state of terror so as to entirely "Abandon" their weapon will NOT re-crew their weapon. These crews have ceased to operate as a viable fighting crew for the time being (what 60 minutes at most for a single battle?)

See the difference? One is temporary to the battle...the other is a more severe and permanent state (at least for the current battle). Also, I don't think it should be REQUIRED that any crew receive casualties in order to abandon a working gun (why would they be stupid enough to wait until the first man dies if the situation is that dire?).

Also, I think everyone is aware that crews would completely abandon and then re-man thier weapons in the time span of a single CM battle. But this is not allowed for several reasons. Primarily (IMO) to stop abusive and gamey behavior.

------------------

Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 05-26-2000).]

[Freyland]

Excellent posting, Scott

Jonathan

[Guest Germanboy]

Mike D, instead of using strong language, doing a search helps. Less coffee helps too.

Abandoned in CM means that the vehicle/gun has sustained slight damage necessitating repairs that are not feasible in the timeframe of a scenario. E.g. a half-track has had a couple of bullets through the heat-exchanger. Nothing major, quick repair possible, but not under fire. If you hold the field of battle after the fight in an operation, your REME gets working on it and salvages it.

Abandoned does not mean that a fully working gun/vehicle is standing around waiting for someone to man it at a moment's notice.

All this has been explained quite a few times and IIRC after the explanation most people on the board accepted this as realistic, if frustrating. If a vehicle is knocked out, you will not be able to recover it in an operation.

Andreas in Canada, still jet-lagged, still honoruring Mr.Peng WRT smilies.

------------------

Andreas

It is amazing what you can learn from a good book...

[Mike D]

Scott,

"But, a crew that has reached such a HIGH state of terror so as to entirely "Abandon" their weapon will NOT re-crew their weapon. These crews have ceased to operate as a viable fighting crew for the time being (what 60 minutes at most for a single battle?)"

Difference noted.

But I still don't agree with you completely. In VoT I had both US 60mm mortar teams take some fire on turn 1. They both crap their pants and abandon their weapons. They don't run away in terror or anything. One of them just stands there with abandoned weapon sitting right in front of them and do nothing. Other one only moves a very short distance away. First team took no casualties, second one only one (one that moved slightly away). The area is no longer under fire just a turn later, maybe two max, after this occurred. For rest of the game after that I could never get either of them to reman their weapons. Try as I might, move them right on top of the mortar, etc. Nothing, notta.

OK, so they abandoned their weapons vs. just panicking.

However........................

Where is the "HIGH state of terror" in this situation????????????????????????????

Where is the great threat to their lives that prevents them from acting like soldiers!???

They are no longer under fire, one of them hasn't even taken a single casualty, and they now magically "cease to operate as a viable fighting crew"? You seriously mean to tell me veteran (can't remember now if they are, or not, in VoT), or for that matter even regular troops, would not pull their act together after 5 to 10 minutes and get back in the fight?

"Also, I don't think it should be REQUIRED that any crew receive casualties in order to abandon a working gun (why would they be stupid enough to wait until the first man dies if the situation is that dire?)."

I didn't say that casualties should be a requirement for abandonment and would agree with you that there are certainly cases where it shouldn't be. Especially in the case of totally green troops where they might turn tail and just run away from their weapon at the first rifle shot. However as I've noted above, the "direness" of the situation was anything but, yet these guys that abandoned their weapons cannot return to reman them? This makes no logical sense to me whatsoever.

Perhaps the real "problem" for lack of a better word in the situation that I encountered was that these crews should have just panicked vs. abandoning their weapons.

Maybe it is a "bug" sort of thing that just needs tweaking for more experienced troops to not abandon their weapons so easily. Or, maybe there was something else going on under the game engine hood not seen by us that caused these guys to act the way they did.

Bottom line though, is that what I saw in this particular case still defies what I would call normal behaviour for regular or veteran troops. To have such guys just drop their weapons and then stand around for the rest of the game with the fully functional weapon just sitting right in front of them and do nothing really makes me wonder.

Regards,

Mike D

aka Mikester

PS: Germanboy. To best of my knowledge the weapons were in no way, shape, or form damaged. When you clicked on them it certainly didn't say they were destroyed or anything.

[This message has been edited by Mike D (edited 05-26-2000).]

[Freyland]

Hey Mike D

I think Germanboy's post pretty much sums it up. If your mortars need to be recanalized after that last artillery barrage, the troops are not going to fire them until they are fixed, no matter how experienced they are. We must keep perspective that each scenario is simply a single firefight, and support personelle (sp?) are lacking.

Cheers, and Good Fighting!

Jonathan

[Jimmy 4 Eyes]

Thanks for all the debate on this question. I can see the point about this being a single firefight, but i still think as Mike D stated that when it happens early in a 35 minute battle (like the first 5 turns) that a crew which senses the dire situation (seeing their comrades being destroyed) could act somewhat heroically and reman their gun. When they and the gun have been ignored for 15 minutes why could they not go back... like i said with a command unit maybe moving in and giving them some positive reinforcement :] (i dont know how to use those yellow smilies).

In this case in VoT the germans still had solid control of the area around the 150mm. I have never been in combat, but I was in the Marines and have heard countless stories and documentaries on the courageous acts of many Marines, Soldiers... I find it hard to believe that this just can absolutely not happen in this game.

I guess my second question would be would it be possible to show more detail on the reason for the abandonment (such as abandoned gun damaged or abandoned gun functional)?

Many of the replies to this were showing the difference between this single fight and the actual continuing action battles. I clearly understand that difference but still have to disagree about the crew leaving a perfectly good gun under fire and then having absolutely no chance of returning.

If the gun shows some damage then of course it can't be fixed in this situation, but as of now the game isn't telling me that.

[chaos]

Mikester,

I don't know for sure what the quality of the crew that you speak of is either, but that is a VERY important consideration in this particular debate.

chaos

[Mike D]

Chaos,

You are quite correct. I believe they are regular good ole US Army grunts, not Veterans, but I could be wrong. I'm also going to have to check and see if I still have the files at home tonight to look at the actual status of the weapons. I'm almost certain that both mortars were not destroyed. Maybe there was some other info that I missed though in the unit details screen??? Can you even get one of these for an abandoned weapon? I seem to recall the answer is no. You only get the info that is on the status bar on the bottom of the screen.

Another thing, after I couldn't use these perfectly good crews to reman their weapons I did use them in a quite "gamey" manner to use Mr. Clinton's terminology. I had them dash about to the far side of the map to make my opponent think that I had other forces over there to tie down more of his guys and keep him from thinking that my main attack was only along the one direction that was readily apparent to him. After getting over there I also cautiously used them to move up and do some scouting and to try to potentially draw some fire from any hidden bunkers on that side of the map so that I could rain artillery down on them. Later on one of them pulled some prisoner guard duty over there as well when some of the Germans started to surrender. If this isn't gamey (except for the guard duty part of it) vs. having the guys reman their weapons like they darn well should have been able to do then I don't know what is.

Regards,

Mike D

aka Mikester

[This message has been edited by Mike D (edited 05-26-2000).]

[Ben Galanti]

I'm fairly certain that it's been stated that a crew won't abandon their weapon (gun,tank,etc...) unless it's taken some damage or some casualties. It's been eplanined more thoroughly for tanks, but I assume it's the same for guns. I think they will only abandon the gun if for some reason it has become not fully combat effective. If it's still effective, the crew will just cower at the gun. Now, maybe they should spell this out better, but if a gun has been abandonned, I think it's because it's no longer usable, but can be repaired quickly for the next battle of the operation. If it's listed as destroyed, it won't be repaired for the next battle.

[Mike D]

Ben,

If what you are saying is true, then what I've seen happen in the game would make a whole lot more sense. Maybe the disfunctional "abandoned" mortar, gun, etc., could have some better info in the display down at the bottom of the screen when you click on it. Like tell us it's "damaged", etc.

Mike D

aka Mikester

[Guest Scott Clinton]

The 60's could very well have been damaged. I don't think there is anyway to tell though.

As for your gamey use of your crews...there is nothing practical that can added to CM (that I know of) to stop players from doing what you did.

But, IF you had lost some of your crews it would have cost you a LOT more in points than if you had simply taken a single squad and split it and used the teams for this purpose. You took the risk, and it seems to have paid off, this time. A game can go only so far in limited 'gamey' behavior if it is to still be playable, fun and 'realistic'.

Also, I think you are missing the point on re-manning weapons being 'gamey'. In YOUR specific example, IF it is as you present it (and I interpret it) then IMHO it certainly would NOT have been gamey at all to have the crews re-man their weapons (assuming that the 60s were not damaged of course).

BUT, if BTS allows this to take place freely, then we would see a LOT more 'gamey' use of crews re-manning weapons than we would see of 'appropriate' re-manning of weapons. If you have ever played a game where this is possible, you know what I mean. If you have never played a game where re-crewing is possible, then take my (and Steve's and Charles' and...) word(s) on it.

Oh yeah...read my sig.

------------------

Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[RudeLover]

An additional consideration with the 'gamey' tactics that you described is that (IIRC) there is no fog-of-war with crews. After they abandon an AFV or heavy weapon, your opponent, when clicking on them, knows forever more that they are crews. Thus their use in faking out the enemy is somewhat limited, since he will know that that icon represents three scared guys with pistols and not your elite infantry schwerpunkt (sp?).

Also, IIRC, all crews that have fled their weapons, vehicles, or bunkers have the dreaded scarlet exclamation mark of the once-broken and are not likely to go far if fired on again.

Caveat: I'm only a junior memeber. I believe that more reliable answers to all this can be found by searching.

[Mattias]

Eh, could someone please tell me more precisely what kind of gamey behaviour that could result from giving the crews the ability to abandon and re-manning the guns?

I’m asking because despite trying I can’t really see the problem in this particular respect.

M.

[chaos]

Friends,

Not only are lost crewmen costly pointwise, but I believe their loss would prohibit the chance of regaining that asset in an ongoing operation. This may not be important in an individual scenario, but, obviously, would be of tremendous import otherwise.

chaos

[Guest Big Time Software]

Mikester,

Uhm, that is what "Abandoned" means for the most part, so we are in fact telling you what you need to know. Since you are playing without a manual there might be things you don't fully understand yet.

To clarify the Abandoned thing... a crew will not leave its team weapon unless it has utterly had it or the weapon has been damanged. Crews do not just saunter off no matter what it might seem like.

Yes, realistically speaking crews sometimes did reman a weapon in the heat of a battle even after some really horrible stuff. But this is the EXCEPTION to the rule. Notice that Panicked crews do not necessarily abandon their weapons. Very often if they stop taking punishment they recover and are available for service again. In our view this simulates the exceptions even if the crew doesn't graphically run away and come running back.

As for gamey tactics with crews... as Scott says there is absolutely NO way we can TOTALLY stop this behavior. But we can absolutely make it largely useless and unproductive. Allowing them to reman their weapon does the opposite. In fact, all the gamey crew uses you mentioned come out like this:

1. Making the enemy think you have more troops - this DOES NOT WORK since the enemy automatically identifies abandoned crews correctly (i.e. no Fog of War to hind behind). This was done to SPECIFICALLY nullify this gamey tactic.

2. Scouting - yes, you can do this to some extent, although their ability to spot and identify enemy units is very low.

3. Distracting enemy units - abanoned crews have the lowest priority for the TacAI. So if a unit is shooting at your crews then it probably has no other targets worth shooting at, and therefore isn't really being distracted much if at all.

4. Guard duty - guarding prisoners is an abstracted thing to begin with, so what you are doing isn't gamey but is rather intentional. In fact, we recommend using bailed out crews to guard prisoners.

So all in all your "gamey" tactics really didn't do anything to help your cause. Conversely, crews are expensive and count more heavily against your victory rating than do other infantry units. So if you are trying to do some of these unproductive things and lose your crew in the process, you have lost more than you have gained for sure.

As Scott says, unless you have played games with crew remanning abilities, please withold your judgement about the need for rulling this behavior out. It is a very complex situation with no easy answers. We might not have the perfect solution, but it certainly works better than others. And in our opinion works good enough that we have no intention of changing it.

Steve

[Guest Scott Clinton]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>....all crews that have fled their weapons, vehicles, or bunkers have the dreaded scarlet exclamation mark of the once-broken and are not likely to go far if fired on again. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is not true. I know this because I asked about this awhile back and crew can bail out and NOT be broken.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...precisely what kind of gamey behaviour that could result from giving the crews the ability to abandon and re-manning the guns?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The most commonly used 'gamey' tactic in my experience is to have a crew, that broke and ran make their 'rally'; then trek 1/2 mile through enemy territory, under fire, taking casualties to man their weapon, that is now behind enemy lines and continue to devastate the enemy.

Sure this happened in the war a few times...but I have seen it in wargames 1,000's of times! There are other 'gamey' tactics also.

If you allow crews to voluntarily abandon their weapons, this opens up a whole host of 'gamey' behaviors.

------------------

Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 05-26-2000).]

[Mike D]

Steve,

Thanks for the reply and the info. Sounds like having the manual would definitely help. Guess that will be a "problem" that will be solved soon enough.

Didn't know that crew's were automatically ID'd as such by the enemy. I.e. no FOW. This makes sense to prevent some of the types of tactics that I described. Guess I learn something new about this game every day.

Regards,

Mike D

aka Mikester

[DanE]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time

... a crew will not leave its team weapon unless it has utterly had it or the weapon has been damanged. Crews do not just saunter off no matter what it might seem like.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I saw a great example last night of a crew sticking to its post.

I watched my germans manning the IG Gun in VoT stand at their post during a vicious bombardment.

For over 4 minutes they were shelled by everything the Americans had. They went from shaken to pinned to panic to shaken and back to panic. During this time they still managed to get off a couple of shots when they weren't dancing with the earthworms.

After it was over, they were still at their post and ready to dish out some punishment.

It was just amazing watching them take cover when the shells were dropping near them (very near at times) and then seeing them hop up and fire off a round when the shells started falling a little farther away.

Of course, the whole time I was yelling at them to hold on just one more minute.

------------------

Dan

[Guest Scott Clinton]

Something I just thought of also...

Because CM does not represent minor wounds (only wounds serious enough to render a person combat non-effective) this could have been a case where there really were quite a few men wounded.

If you try to imagine 6-8 or even all of the men suffering from 'minor' wounds and 'minor' concussions from the shelling it may make it seem a little more realistic as to why they would "Abandon" a working weapon.

------------------

Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.