Frustration .. Spoilers inside

[ASL Veteran]

Spoilers follow

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I was playing ‘All or Nothing’ the other night (still am actually), and I have encountered several frustrating ‘features’ of this game (the best WW2 tactical game on the computer ever made). This was written in a complete state of agitation and no research was done to verify any historical reasoning. Okay, it’s about turn 20 or so and I am rolling along. Took the ridge overlooking the city with little difficulty and set up some FO s and Vickers at the top. I had two platoons of infantry up top and decided to sneak them down toward the bottom of the ridge. Mean time my armor support went under the bridge and around the ridge with little difficulty and lined up on the road in front of the city. My only losses at that point was one unfortunate Churchill who was on the bridge pointing toward the city who got knocked out in the left side of his turret as he fired at some pioneers on the other side of the river (to his right) thus blocking the bridge completely.

My Bren Carrier had detected some mines at both ends of the bridge – the ones on my side were located on either side of the road, but not on it, while a daisy chain was laid across the road on the far side of the bridge. The plan was to bring some infantry (two platoons) down to the bridge from the ridge, clear the daisy chain on the other side of the river and bring the Croc into town to wreak havoc. That plan fell apart because my troops were having difficulty on the German side of the ridge. Part of the problem was frustration A: as my troops were sneaking down the ridge, they kept shooting at the Germans who were running about like Pheasants on the other side. One squad was continuously firing at a light armored vehicle? about … get this … 784 meters away!! I kept putting them on Hide, and they kept firing at that damn HT. I was to the point of screaming at the monitor “Hey ChowderHead, what the F do you think you are going to accomplish here!! Save your ammo and blend in with the trees!!” A lot of my squads were down to half strength so I just had them hide near the base of the ridge – some of them still firing at ridiculous targets. Anyway, I went to plan B: take the reinforcement Challengers, load a platoon on them, drive across the bridge to just in front of the daisy chain, have the infantry remove the daisy chain and proceed with getting the Croc over to wreak havoc on the city.

This leads to frustration B – just as my lead Challenger reaches my side of the bridge “BOOM” hits a mine and is destroyed. Second one follows right into the same minefield “BOOM” and is immobilized. So what you ask? Well, how the heck did the Krauts bury their mines in a Fing PAVED ROAD!! I could accept it if it was a daisy chain but it wasn’t. Well, after that frustration the infantry walked across the bridge anyway and I put them next to the daisy chain laying across the road on the Kraut’s side of the bridge. Turns out that only engineers can clear mines … of ANY kind. Even some AT mines just laying out in the road!! Come on … I don’t really care how long it takes, but even standard infantry should be able to clear a freakin daisy chain laying out on a paved road!! All this ridiculousness (and wasted time) goes for nothing because the designer decided to make the secondary bridge impassible to armor (not a single engineer in the order of battle). Now I have to go back to the primary bridge that the Churchill is blocking. I turn the Croc around and drive back to the Primary Bridge so he can clear the other Churchill off the bridge. Mean time a whole mess of reinforcements have arrived so I decide that I’ll send them across the primary bridge once the wreckage is cleared. I kept waiting for the troops that were supposedly coming up the RR service road, but they don’t seem to be included unless they come later. Anyway, after a few traffic snarls the reinforcements finally get lined up in front of the bridge – which brings me to frustration C: Why can’t trucks, jeeps, and scout cars have a speed in between walking speed and maximum speed?? That frustration is minor though compared to the bridge fiasco.

Okay, here goes … The Croc nudges past the Churchill on the bridge and gets across no problem. The following Cromwell then knocks the Churchill down to the ground below the bridge (I have to admit that I was looking forward to a hollywood style Churchill tumbling to the ground below, but it just sort of teleported down). Okay, so then the Cromwell stops mid bridge and takes out an SP gun (which brewed up my Firefly near the river who maneuvered with the express purpose of destroying it, but for some reason never spotted it) and continues on to the other side. Next vehicle across is a Wolverine. He gets about three quarters of the way across and engages a Mark IV that my Piat team on the other side of the secondary bridge could not take out with six shots (such is the fortune of war). He brews up the Mark IV but gets brewed up at the same time. Bridge blocked again. The next vehicles in line behind the burning M10 is a Humber, a Cromwell, and another Wolverine. Suddenly the Wolverine at the end of the bridge (about one quarter of the way out) brews up. I have burning Wolverine bookends surrounding a Cromwell and a Humber.

Humber can’t get past the Wolverine in front and is blocked by the Cromwell and Wolverine behind. I take the Cromwell who made it across the first time and knock the Wolverine on the far end into the rocks below the bridge thus allowing the Humber and the second Cromwell to cross. I then move the Sexton from the ridge side of the river to knock the other Wolverine off the bridge and the Sexton makes it across – which leads me to frustration D: turns out that a tank has to be hit TWICE before it gets knocked out of the way – which is what I was inadvertantly doing before. All the halftracks that are following the Sexton get jammed up because they can’t follow the Sexton past the Wolverine!! Some even end up testing the slope near the bridge entrance. Finally I say to hell with it and I send the Croc forward to the cross roads while I bring up the other Sexton from the rear of the column to finish the job of knocking the Wolverine off the bridge. Meanwhile I have to rearrange all those halftracks and trucks to the side of the road again while the Sexton comes up. My only satisfaction came when the Croc burnt a Flak gun and a pair of trucks at the cross roads as the 20mm shells bounced harmlessly off it’s thick hide. I have 20 more turns left. Hopefully I won’t need to vent anymore before the end.

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASL Veteran:

Spoilers follow

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I was playing ‘All or Nothing’ the other night (still am actually), and I have encountered several frustrating ‘features’ of this game (the best WW2 tactical game on the computer ever made). .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I feel for you; if you are interested, you can read my five-part AAR of this scenario on the Usenet war-historical forum.There are also some comments by me and by others on this forum regarding this scenario.A few comments about your game.

The briefing warned you that the wooden bridge would be difficult to take and that it was probably preferable to take the other bridge. What they didn't tell you is that if you just try to waltz across the stone bridge, you will be blasted to kingdom come by half the German army...

Yes, you DO get engineers eventually , but they arrive on the wrong side of the river, and they have their own mines to clear before they can become available .

I don't believe that normal infantry was normally used to clear minefields of any kind in WW2, due to the possibility of booby traps (I could be wrong).

The main problem with this scenario is the need to micro-manage many vehicles on the roads, which is due to the game and not the scenario (see discussions elsewhere). It is normal to have tanks bog down in the soft ground and to throw tracks on the railroad -if it hasn't happened to you yet, say a prayer and expect the worst.

At no point before you enter the city whould you harbor the illusion that your troubles are over; you ain't seen nothin' yet!

Good luck!

Henri

[This message has been edited by Henri (edited 07-24-2000).]

[Talenn]

In regards to 'Frustration A':

I definately think the game would benefit from a general 'engagement range' order. I too have had my troops blithely blasting away at targets FAR in the distance and giving away their positions and wasting ammo. I think a Platoon Leader should have the command and all units in CC obey it.

AFV's would benefit as well, from either a similar order or a 'Engage AFV/Infantry/All' toggle. I like to keep defensive AFV's off of 'hide' so that they will shoot at enemy AFVs before being destroyed, but far too often they open up on some team walking 800m away through a gap in the trees, thus alerting enemy armor to the threat...these guys would be court martialed!

But, like you said, this is the best thing going. Its not without its share of flaws, but I am confident that BTS will do whatever they can to make changes as good ideas are presented.

Talenn

[PvK]

As for laying concealed mines on paved roads... many paved roads in Europe are paved with bricks and stones. Thus mines can be placed under the stones. Also, engineers who place the mines could break up even concrete or asphalt a bit to hide mines under.

As for daisy chain mines being clearable by infantry by hand. Would you volunteer for such duty? Just because there are un-hidden mines doesn't mean there aren't hidden mines and traps there.

Troops only very rarely would go about trying to clear minefields during combat, especially minefields they'd just found some minutes ago.

I'll repeat my agreement that units often engage the wrong targets at the wrong ranges.

I also agree that mid-range speed settings would be nice.

PvK

[IntelWeenie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PvK:

Troops only very rarely would go about trying to clear minefields during combat, especially minefields they'd just found some minutes ago.

PvK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember reading an account about a column of troops from Patton's 3rd army (4th Armored??) that was stalled most of an afternoon because no one wanted to touch a yellow ribbon strung across a road...

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"Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PvK:

As for laying concealed mines on paved roads... many paved roads in Europe are paved with bricks and stones. Thus mines can be placed under the stones. Also, engineers who place the mines could break up even concrete or asphalt a bit to hide mines under.

As for daisy chain mines being clearable by infantry by hand. Would you volunteer for such duty? Just because there are un-hidden mines doesn't mean there aren't hidden mines and traps there.

Troops only very rarely would go about trying to clear minefields during combat, especially minefields they'd just found some minutes ago.

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This is quite correct from what I have read. The Germans in Africa loved booby traps. Oldest trick in the world, put some visible AT mines on the road, and connect them to hidden AP mines. Guaranteed to take out the unsuspecting sapper. Or stall the enemy. Another good one, bury two rows of mines, and twenty rows of tin cans, and two rows of mines. By the time they get to the 10th row, the sappers are going to say, 'ah sod it', get in their vehicles, drive twenty yards - boom. The problem is that the game does not have flail tanks and other such devices. To make up for that, mines are very generic, so it should balance each other out. Just my £0.02

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Andreas

[Jadayne]

who finally cut the ribbon?

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jadayne:

who finally cut the ribbon?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Patton peed on it.

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Andreas

[ASL Veteran]

I half heartedly played out another ten turns and called a cease fire. I had stopped playing the whole scenario right before I wrote the initial post. I pretty much just forgot about the troops in front of the city and concentrated on the RR service road. I didn't figure I had enough time to take everything I needed to take. Turns out I was kicking the Krauts butt even with all my incompetence and lack of interest in the last twenty turns. I had already basically taken out everything of consequence on the German side and had I taken out the JagdPanzer on the RR tracks I would have waltzed into the victory locations. I don't think it will be very close if I play it again as the Allies against the AI. Allies 94 casualties, 8 vehicles ko. Krauts 211 casualties, 5 guns ko, 12 vehicles ko, 6 POW. Allies 52, Krauts 48. Engineers arrive too late to have an effect (turn 62 I think it was).

[Guest KwazyDog]

OKeyDokey, a couple of points

*This was written in a complete state of agitation and no research was done to verify any historical reasoning*

If you going to write a post like that with comments such as those you made, it would be indeed nice if you could take the time to make sure the comments you were writing were accurate. I did my best to make an enjoyable scenario for all, but it appears in your case I failed. Ahh well, life goes on Im sure, hehe.....

*I could accept it if it was a daisy chain but it wasn’t. *

Yeah they were, unless my scenario was altered which I dont believe it was.

*All this ridiculousness (and wasted time) goes for nothing because the designer decided to make the secondary bridge impassible to armor*

Umm, yeah, as mentioned in the briefing? It clearly states that an assult across the bridge is not advisable. Sorry if you misread or didnt read it.

*(not a single engineer in the order of battle).*

Yeah, there was. They had a variable entry time and it sounds like you got unlucky.

As for the bridge crossing, ever heard of smoke ? Its the only way to make it easily across the bridge, but if you use it properly it indeed works well.

Im not sure why you attempted a crossing over the wooden bridge but damn it must have been nasty as its a killing zone, which is why in the briefing it was strongly advised against. I actually had the bridge taken out why I was designing the scenario, but decided to leave it in for the unwary player.

[This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 07-25-2000).]

[This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 07-25-2000).]

[ASL Veteran]

Yeah I heard of smoke. Didn't need it though cause the area in front of the bridge was not covered with heavy fire (although I did fire smoke to cover the first guys across). The infantry were getting hit on the ridge itself by the guys near the RR station. Once they got down near the bridge they could walk over with relative ease. I didn't even move half of my force after turn 50 because I was frustrated and lost interest. After numerous artillery barrages and with 10 tanks in front of the city shooting everything that breathed (and some things that weren't breathing) there wasn't much left in the city. No, the scenario is a good one - I just don't like the inability to breach the mines as far as the specific scenario goes - the other frustrations were in the game itself. If I had some engineers in the initial OB I would have been in the city by turn 35 at the latest and would have been mopping up by turn 50 or thereabouts. The only thing of consequence keeping me out of the city was the mines. I was so frustrated by the time I got to crossing the primary bridge (along with the problems of getting across - again game related not scenario related) that I just started going through the motions moving only the Croc to see what I could burn up and also to find out when the engineers arrived. I guess that my only complaint that is scenario specific is that I would like the ability to breach the minefield whenever I am ready. I just like to have the tools on hand to get the job done.

[NCrawler]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PvK:

As for laying concealed mines on paved roads... many paved roads in Europe are paved with bricks and stones. Thus mines can be placed under the stones. Also, engineers who place the mines could break up even concrete or asphalt a bit to hide mines under.

PvK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to be the lucky bastard that gets to put mines under rocks...

[Zamo]

Yeah that one sounded touchy to me as well. "Here Ed, Let me pry up this flagstone and you put that APERS mine under it...there ya go, now I'll just put this rock back like so and...***BOOM***

As to All or nothing, Other than the designated engagement range issue of "A", I found this one of the most challenging and consequently most rewarding scenario I have yet played. It was rife with frustrations indeed, but man, when it was over did it seem an accomplishement. I only regret that having played it, I can't play it again (the old against the AI a second time deal).

Keep trying ASL Vet, You'll have decimating victorys as well...

Zamo

[jgdpzr]

KwazyDog,

Just wanted to let you know that I really enjoyed this scenario. The size of the map, and it's design, led to a bit of micro-managing, but as far as the effect of terrain on a battle, I have to say this is my favorite scenario I have played thus far. I also liked the length of the battle, it gave me plenty of time to change tactics once I realized clearing the secondary bridge of mines was a hopeless task.

Potential Spoiler below...

But man, I tell you, that damn 210MM arty spotter exacted a murderous toll on my poor unwary Tommies. A turn or two after the wildly scattered rounds came down, I went to check on the progress one of my platoons and some support units were making up the big ridge across from the town and I saw they were all dead. No big crater, so I suppose an almost nuclear treeburst vaporized the poor fellows midway up the hill. Pity I missed it (although that may have spared me some tears). I checked this FO's kill total at the end of the game and it was dreadful, some 57 infantry casualties (I'm sure most of them were from that one treeburst) three mortars an MG or two, some trucks, and a kitchen sink thrown in for good measure (couldn't resist). Ouch, that is the highest kill total I have seen to date, either for or against me and was the major reason why my casualties here were the highest I've endured outside of the Sherbrooke Fusiliers scenario.

Anyway, great scenario! Thanks, and keep up the outstanding work!

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"Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes the bar eats you. Take it easy, Dude." -- The Stranger

The Dude abides.

[ASL Veteran]

I am sure that the designer worked hard on this scenario, but with all due respect, I think that the unclearable mines in front and behind the secondary bridge is gamey scenario design. Basically he is saying "you have one narrow route of attack (down the RR line) and I have designed this scenario in such a way that you must follow this twisty path that I have designated for you. Meanwhile I will focus the AI defense on denying you this one twisty path." Give the player the choice of which route to take and give him the tools to go whichever way he wants to. Give the enemy the ability to sufficiently deny or defend whichever route the Allies want to take, but don't give me some crap where you are ... anyway, that's enough for now

[jgdpzr]

Your complaints may be justified, because the map and scenario design can create some problems. However, my take was a little different, probably because I may have adopted a different strategy than you did. Also, my reinforcements on the railroad side of the map may have come in earlier than yours did. That would make a difference. I had plenty of time and resources to clear the approach to the rail yard. Also, once I found out that the secondary bridge was well-mined, I had time to shift the schwerepunkt fairly easily. It also helped that I didn't have the traffic jam you did on the primary bridge. Had I experienced that, I would probably have a different opinion of the scenario. As it worked out for me, however, I found the design characteristics of this scenario to be the best I have played so far. They were definitely challenging, but not unplayable or gamey to me.

About the only thing I might change, or suggest, would be another platoon of engineers, deployed initially with the bulk of forces. Also, this battle SCREAMS for a funny or two. But it definitely sounds like events conspired to spoil and frustrate you on this one.

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jgdpzr:

Your complaints may be justified, because the map and scenario design can create some problems. However, my take was a little different, probably because I may have adopted a different strategy than you did. Also, my reinforcements on the railroad side of the map may have come in earlier than yours did.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So did mine, and they had a negligible effect on the battle. Maybe the game needs a function where the designer can give a "last entry date" to avoid reinforcements arriving much too late when the probability is low. Or else maybe designers shoulsd avoid low-probability arrivals below say, 25%. Most people don't play the scenariotwice anyway.

I also believe that this scenario is well-designed for what it does: the player (if he follows the briefing recommendations) is met with one surprise after another, and the game feels a bit like an obstacle course. As a result, the tension is maintained right until the end, because by the time that the British player reaches that point, he is conditioned to expect the sky to fall on his head any minute as it has for the past 70 moves...

Henri