Bruno Weiss Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 The Polish suffered from two things, not three. A behind the curve technology and tactics problem, much like most of the Allies, and being the very first to encounter those new technologies arrayed against them. They did not suffer from any lack of bravery. Were the Polish Cavalry charge to have consisted of tanks instead of horses, a much different outcome would be reasonable to presume. As to where did they come from? Not a bad question, I never really thought that much about it and just assumed they came from the same place as the Free French. Though obviously the French made good their escape at Dunkirk, and having been slightly more imperialistic held dominions in Afrika and the Med. I'd be interested in the details though, as to how it came to pass that such a large contingent of Polish managed to escape to fight another day. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 10-31-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fd ski Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 As for the Cavalery charge - look at that page - it's a myth.. http://mops.uci.agh.edu.pl/~rzepinsk/1939/html/cav.htm As for troops - once the front started to collapse - all the troops were ordered to either give up to russians ( who were expected to be somewhat less cruel then Germans ... little did they know ) or to escape though Romania. Romania had quite a good relations wiht Poland and allowed a LOT of polish soldiers to pass though to France and UK. Stalin murdered lot of officers who were captured ( Katyn forest ) and rest were send to Syberia. Once the USSR was attacked and joined the allies - Stalin was forced to release all the POWs from september 1939. Lot of them tranfered to UK though Far east. Most of them were not to see homeland again - communist regieme treated them as traitors. Some of the PAF pilots who returned to Poland after teh war, disregarding the political situation ( and enougraged by UK government ) were executed. Others lived in harrasment and without any recodnition. Very sad story actually.. fd-ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Sosaboski Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 Indeed, the Poles were not treated well by the Brit leadership. In fact, the paras were made into scapegoats for Market Garden by the Brits and were not allowed to march in the London Victory Parade (when the Polish RAF personnel were invited, they made a stand of solidarity with their airborne comrades and also refused to take part because of that). Gen Sosabowski, an admired and great leader, was relieved of command around the end of the war, and eventually went close to bankruptcy, his men sending him Christmas cards each year. At one point, he was a diswasher in London he was so poor, and died this way. Just a plain old sad story of brave men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 A friend of the family was actually a polish jew who fled to Russia, got sent to Siberia and eventually got sent to the front. Ended up lugging an 82mm mortar across his homeland before emigrating to the states. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fd ski Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gen. Sosaboski: Indeed, the Poles were not treated well by the Brit leadership. In fact, the paras were made into scapegoats for Market Garden by the Brits and were not allowed to march in the London Victory Parade (when the Polish RAF personnel were invited, they made a stand of solidarity with their airborne comrades and also refused to take part because of that). Gen Sosabowski, an admired and great leader, was relieved of command around the end of the war, and eventually went close to bankruptcy, his men sending him Christmas cards each year. At one point, he was a diswasher in London he was so poor, and died this way. Just a plain old sad story of brave men.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As for the parade - the version i've read stated that Churchil didn't want to piss off Stalin ( there were two Polish Governments at that time - one in London and one in Poland ) As for Sosabowski - that's a shameful story. I've never heard it before. How sad. Could you provide some references as to the Market Garden thing ? I've never read anything to that account... And after playing MG in just about every stragegy game ( computer and not ) i don't see how could that possibly be a case. ------------------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 fd ski wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As for the Cavalry charge - look at that page - it's a myth. http://mops.uci.agh.edu.pl/~rzepinsk/1939/html/cav.htm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Most interesting, and I will not enter into a debate over something that the world has generally accepted as truth for sixty years (rightly or mistakenly), that is now being disputed. However if we are to resort to websites as truth absolute, I'll see your website reference and raise you two: http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/text/x17/xm1795.html http://www.uhmc.sunysb.edu/apap/archives/current/5873.html http://www.zem.co.uk/polart/video/document/V100.htm I say I won't dispute the claim since I did a little research and indeed the subject seems to be at the center of an ongoing controversy. However if it is a myth, then the Simon Wiesenthal Center, (not known for it's tributes to the Third Reich), and Time Life Books, (the Center's reference, and known for their credentials on accurate reporting), certainly seem to be holding onto it. After reading several sources, I would speculate that the truth probably is somewhere in the middle. It would appear that Polish Cavalry attacking German Infantry was surprised by supporting light armor and the story was later embellished. However whether or not Polish Cavalry attacked German Armor, how, why, and to what extent was not my point. The Poles were, as you pointed out, attacked by two of the worlds largest, certainly at that moment in time, one of the worlds best equipped armies. No one bothered to assist them directly, save for the brave but hallow words of the France and England, and my point was, that while Poland may have suffered from many factors weighing against their success, a lack of bravery wasn't one of them. Which, I see all too often asserted within some of the threads on this forum, and the reason for my post in the first place. That then, takes us back full circle to where I began. Simplified, the Polish were exceptionally brave fighters, they were however as the old axiom would decree, "in the wrong place at the wrong time". ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 10-31-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Sosaboski Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 FD, I've read about the MG incident in a book (I believe it's by Martin Middlebrook) about Arnhem 1944. Pretty strong references in there about Brits vs. Poles. Otherwise, I've simply heard it around. Story goes that the Brits couldn't blame their Airborne (why could they, after all?), couldn't blame the Americans who contributed the majority of the troops to the campaign, and CERTAINLY could not blame their own ground forces. Who's left? The Poles, of course. Also, the Airborne stayed in Driel a time after the main battle was over, and then marched back to Eindhoven under mortar fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gen. Sosaboski: Indeed, the Poles were not treated well by the Brit leadership. In fact, the paras were made into scapegoats for Market Garden by the Brits and were not allowed to march in the London Victory Parade (when the Polish RAF personnel were invited, they made a stand of solidarity with their airborne comrades and also refused to take part because of that). Gen Sosabowski, an admired and great leader, was relieved of command around the end of the war, and eventually went close to bankruptcy, his men sending him Christmas cards each year. At one point, he was a diswasher in London he was so poor, and died this way. Just a plain old sad story of brave men.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Gee, why am I not surprised? Another case of the benevolent treatment of other countries troops by the then British "Empire". (Don't worry, I'm not suggesting it's still the case but perhaps equal pay and superannuation conditions for the Gurkhas may be a big step forward for the UK armed forces at the present moment?). Just my somewhat jaundiced thoughts on the topic. Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robo Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 This URL contains info regarding the formation of Polish units after the Fall of Poland: http://www.zem.co.uk/polinuk/fed/contrib.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirocco Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann: Another case of the benevolent treatment of other countries troops by the then British "Empire".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ------------------ "He belongs to a race which has coloured the map red, and all he wants are the green fields of England..." - Joe Illingworth, Yorkshire Post War Correspondent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirocco Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann: Another case of the benevolent treatment of other countries troops by the then British "Empire".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ------------------ "He belongs to a race which has coloured the map red, and all he wants are the green fields of England..." - Joe Illingworth, Yorkshire Post War Correspondent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirocco Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann: Another case of the benevolent treatment of other countries troops by the then British "Empire".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ------------------ "He belongs to a race which has coloured the map red, and all he wants are the green fields of England..." - Joe Illingworth, Yorkshire Post War Correspondent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaffertape Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 That's a terrible story about Sosabowski. Absolutely criminal that his life came to that. GAFF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted November 3, 2000 Share Posted November 3, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sirocco: <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes you're right Sirocco, the word "benevolent" should have been replaced with "manoevolent". Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts