Questions

[Private Ryan]

I just have a couple of questions for the final release version.

1) Will anti-magnetic paste be incorporated with the german tanks?

2) Will the Pz Jag Tiger (P) be in the game? There were only 90 produced, but most, if not all, served in the western front. They served much earlier than CM's timeframe, but I wandared if some german unit had these.

Thanks again.

Pvt. Ryan

[Doug Beman]

1) No, anti-mine paste was used primarily on the East Front (the Western Allies didn't use mag-mines) and, by the CM's time frame, the Germans had discontinued the general use of anti-mine paste because of time and expense.

2) No, as the Tiger (P) served primarily on the EAST Front, and were withdrawn from service (those that were left) in mid-44. In fact, you answered your own question: they served before CM, so aren't in CM.

DjB

[Mattias]

Just fleshing out a bit...

Actually the, then, Elefants fought on to the bitter end.

Last recorded engagement was by the s.Pz.Jg.Kp. 614 on the 22th of April 1945. Four Elefants engaged in defence around Zossen, south of Berlin.

(Spielberger & Co.)

But, yes, except for the 11 Elefants sent to Italy in early 1944, all fought on the Eastern front.

Actually there is a whole lot to be said in respect for the Ferdinand/Elefant. After reading the in depth coverage of in it book nr. 15 in Spielbergs series on German vehicles I came out with a whole new view of it.

It had it’s shortcomings, some of them considerable, but compared to a perversion like the Jagdtiger (Sd Kfz 186) it looks like a reasonably sound design.

Deployed in depth of the own defensive line it is a true killer.

M.

[Doug Beman]

I did not know about the late-war exploits of the Tiger (P). It was always my understanding that they were virtually wasted out of service by Jan 1945, like the PzIIIs.

I'll admit that, properly used, they were quite nasty tank killers. On the attack, however, they were almost as useless as JagdTigers.

DjB

[Mattias]

Doug,

You could pretty much say they were

During the summer of 1944 they were heavily engaged in the east (s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 653), strength fluctuating between 33 and finally 0 available vehicles by the 1st of August.

Being slow and heavy they were ill suited for the rapid Soviet advance and several were simply left behind when they couldn’t be salvaged in time.

The remaining vehicles were pulled out, patched up and eventually turned over to the 614th mentioned above (the 653 being "rearmed" with Jagdtigers).

On the 30th of december 1944, 14 Elefants were reported as operational, fighting under the 4th Panzerarmee, Heresgruppe A.

From there on it was just more down hill until pretty much the bitter end, as reported above.

M.

[Fionn]

Basically during 1943 it looks like the Elefants killed 15 or so Soviet tanks for every Elefant lost.

ANY vehicle of which 4 or 5 % can survive 2 years of vicious combat after production finished is a good vehicle.

Remember that the Elefant is another example of a German vehicle which was so survivable that the majority of those lost were probably lost due to mechanical and fuel troubles.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Guest Big Time Software]

The zimmermit paste was not applied after mid 1944 because the Allies failed to produce effective magnetic mines. So the Germans finally decided it was safe to stop coating their tanks. Ironically, the Germans had magnetic AT mines until they ran into shortages of magnets. So from about the same period they were using them less and less against Allied vehicles.

As for the Ferdinands, I think most were lost quickly at Kursk simply because they didn't know how to use the new beast in combat effectively. After the reamining vehicles were withdrawn and retrofitted with an MG, the Elephants did prove to be pretty deadly vehicles. The MG must have been a part of that, but better tactical use of the vehicles most likely was the big reason.

Steve

[Mattias]

Another little titbit...

My impression from reading Spielberger & Co. is that the most prevalent cause of loss of a Ferdinand in combat was due to the fact the engine compartment cover was too lightly, if at all, armoured.

The Russian artillery was, seemingly, such that wherever there were Germans the shells were coming in like a hail storm.

Even if not hit dead on, shrapnel would still penetrate into the engine compartment. And once dancing around there the poor layout with exposed fuel lines and extremely hot engines did the rest, hey presto, engine fire!

Many of the changes incorporated in the Elefant upgrade was aimed at rectifying these weaknesses.

The more I read about Kursk the more absurd the whole battle appears. Under those conditions no armor could be deployed in accordance to doctrine or common sense.

M.

[Fionn]

There's a good site with a translation of a Russian document detailing Elefant kills at Kursk and the reason WHY the Elefant died..

I think it lists 18 kills.. Anyways, it looks like the majority were mobility kills and abandonments due to arty damage.. Offhand I only remember 4 being killed by AT shells and the others are M kills or abandonments.

The Russkies seemed to call a LOT of arty down on German heavy tanks in the hopes of immobilising them.. At least that's the way it seems from this and other reports I've read.

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers