6 PDR?

[chuckdyke]

When does the Churchill 6 PDR use its APDS Munitions? Going by my references the 6PDR with APDS should penetrate it. Range was less than 400 meters. I knew the gun was damaged did the TacAI recognize this?

Edited November 26, 2022 by chuckdyke

[RockinHarry]

16 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

When does the Churchill 6 PDR use its APDS Munitions? Going by my references the 6PDR with APDS should penetrate it. Range was less than 400 meters. I knew the gun was damaged did the TacAI recognize this?

https://panzerworld.com/relative-armor-calculator?armor_thickness=80&angle_1=30&angle_2=90&angle_type=sine&calculation_type=normal

[chuckdyke]

I got partial penetration and spalling with the basic AP shells. The APDS should penetrate it.

[RockinHarry]

14 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

I got partial penetration and spalling with the basic AP shells. The APDS should penetrate it.

what 6pdr APDS penetration data do you take as reference? http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=74:6-pounder-anti-tank-gun&catid=40:anti-tank&Itemid=58

[chuckdyke]

21 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

what 6pdr APDS penetration data do you take as reference?

From Wikki Imo it should penetrate distance was around 300 meters. The game just kept using AP which is I think accurately modelled Imo opinion full penetration was achieved with a 75mm from the flank. All I wanted to see is what the APDS which is sufficiently accurate at that distance. 

[RockinHarry]

14 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

From Wikki Imo it should penetrate distance was around 300 meters. The game just kept using AP which is I think accurately modelled Imo opinion full penetration was achieved with a 75mm from the flank. All I wanted to see is what the APDS which is sufficiently accurate at that distance. 

Think "vertical armor" is key term here. Your data is close to the one given from my link, but at 30 degree it drops down to 138mm then compared to Panthers frontal 160mm/30° at <500m. For some the other spots IDK. That´s how I understand this thing, but don´t know otherwise. CM TacAI might draw its data from such a table, then decides it can´t effectively penetrate/kill, also having just few of the APDS on board (and thus is hesitant to use them up). AP/APCBC then might be considered doing the job as it did in your example (the crew abandoned the Jagdpanther) with vehicle maybe having multiple internal spalling damages as well as beeing immobilized? And damaged gun off course.

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, RockinHarry said:

(the crew abandoned the Jagdpanther

I think once the gun was damaged they would have withdrawn from the battlefield. This is what Michael Wittman did on occasion. After all you can repair an AFV a good crew is hard to come by. I just turned into a test. It was obvious the gun was damaged after the first encounter. Thank you for your comments.

Edited November 26, 2022 by chuckdyke

[RockinHarry]

4 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

I think once the gun was damaged they would have withdrawn from the battlefield. This is what Michael Wittman did on occasion. After all you can repair an AFV a good crew is hard to come by. I just turned into a test. It was obvious the gun was damaged after the first encounter. Thank you for your comments.

Yep, could well be the gun (damage) was deciding factor here. Then crew maybe just needed some more headaches before deciding to bail. In RL it may be a deciding factor if you´re either at eastern or western front. On western front a german tank crew may count on the "mercy" of allied troops when bailing. At eastern front maybe not so much. Also... could the crew expect some quick support from friendlies nearby or are they´re all alone. In case for your Jagdpanther I´d suspect it was fairly high morale and maybe experienced one. So it took a lot of pounding before they´d enough I guess. How many these JPanther guys survived btw? It sure was a fairly exciting encounter.

Edited November 26, 2022 by RockinHarry

[chuckdyke]

3 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

It sure was a fairly exciting encounter.

I think the AI fell short here. A human player would have reversed and withdrawn. The Jagdpanther needed a new barrel. Just played on carefully with my overwhelming power of artillery and plenty of TRPs.

[RockinHarry]

9 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

I think the AI fell short here. A human player would have reversed and withdrawn. The Jagdpanther needed a new barrel. Just played on carefully with my overwhelming power of artillery and plenty of TRPs.

Yep, the AI falls short in many areas unfortunately. Think a 17pdr would have made this a 1-2 shot affair.

interesting little story on this Jagdpanther (of 655th Schwere PanzerJäger Abteilung) btw. http://overlord-wot.blogspot.com/2018/02/a-veritable-victory.html

and damage from a 17pdr in operation Veritable It was a US M36 at Remagen bridgehead battles. This particular pic seems erroneously associated to different battles it seems.

Edited November 26, 2022 by RockinHarry

[chuckdyke]

Yes, no 17pdr in this scenario. But once fired he gives his position away. 17 PDRs better kept mobile on a TD such as an Achilles. 

[RockinHarry]

1 hour ago, chuckdyke said:

Yes, no 17pdr in this scenario. But once fired he gives his position away. 17 PDRs better kept mobile on a TD such as an Achilles. 

ah okay, no choices then. Though found your described actions and those from "a veritable victory" (link in my post above) story bits of comparable and thus interesting (canadian M10 and Churchill vs Jagdpanther).

Edited November 26, 2022 by RockinHarry

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, RockinHarry said:

ah okay, no choices then. Though found your described actions and those from "a veritable victory" (link in my post above) story bits of comparable and thus interesting (canadian M10 and Churchill vs Jagdpanther).

Much appreciated, luck was on my side in this engagement. I thought I was dealing with a STUG going by the sound contact behind a house. Let the 6PDR ATG do area fire on the building hoping for a response. Well that came as a full contact. Let everything fire at it and one lucky shot hit the muzzle brake. I could easily have lost two or three Churchills and retreated. Now I could carefully probe with infantry. Reversed the Churchills for the time being. 

[RockinHarry]

8 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Much appreciated, luck was on my side in this engagement. I thought I was dealing with a STUG going by the sound contact behind a house. Let the 6PDR ATG do area fire on the building hoping for a response. Well that came as a full contact. Let everything fire at it and one lucky shot hit the muzzle brake. I could easily have lost two or three Churchills and retreated. Now I could carefully probe with infantry. Reversed the Churchills for the time being. 

sound and clever tactics! What CMBN mission (?) is that if I may ask?

[chuckdyke]

56 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

sound and clever tactics!

Swansong. Bp1 in Battle for Normandy. I was actually born in a province next to that place, the island of Walcheren (Province of Zeeland the Netherlands). Look forward to an extension which will be battle for the causeway. That battle is two steps forward and one step backwards. British tactics play it like cricket. Openers, Middle Order, and Tailenders. Attack with Fast Bowlers, Spin, and control the field.

Edited November 27, 2022 by chuckdyke

[RockinHarry]

17 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Swansong. Bp1 in Battle for Normandy. I was actually born in a province next to that place, the island of Walcheren (Province of Zeeland the Netherlands). Look forward to an extension which will be battle for the causeway. That battle is two steps forward and one step backwards. British tactics play it like cricket. Openers, Middle Order, and Tailenders. Attack with Fast Bowlers, Spin, and control the field.

Thanks. If I find time I might give it a go. We need CW in FB ASAP!