Guest Zigster Posted January 22, 2000 Share Posted January 22, 2000 I recall BTS stating that the Lynx (Luchs) would be referred to in the game as the PzKw II Ausf. L (or however the game abbreviates it) and not by its more common name of Luchs According to von Senger und Etterlin, the designation for the PzKw IIL was changed due to its exclusive use in recon units to PanzerSpähwagen II (2cm Kwk 38)(SdKfz 123) Luchs. On that subject, will the 5cm/L60 armed version also be available? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 22, 2000 Share Posted January 22, 2000 Actually I believe I said it would be called the PzKw II Ausf L I doubt it'll be changed to PSW II L simply because PzKw II L is still right ( PSWs would be a subsection of PanzerKampfagens) and there are THREE accepted and correct designations: 1 PzKpfw II Ausf L 2 PanzerSpaehwagen II and 3 PanzerSpaehwagen Luchs BTW the 5cm L/60d version never went into production and it wouldn't have been called the Luchs in any case... Any idea what it would have been called? It's an easy one ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindan Posted January 22, 2000 Share Posted January 22, 2000 According to von Senger u. Etterlin the first 100 <font color=red>PSW Luchs</font> had 2cm KWK 38. From number 101 on they build the 50L60 in, but they didn't change the name. 31 of those were build. production ended 12. May 1943. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zigster Posted January 22, 2000 Share Posted January 22, 2000 I tend to trust von Senger und E. above other sources. He was at one time the commander of X Korps in Italy. I was happier than a kid at Christmas when I found his book at the second hand book store for five bucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 22, 2000 Share Posted January 22, 2000 Actually Lindan I think that either von Senger Und Etterlin is wrong (it HAS been known to happen BTW) or you're simply reading it wrong. Simple reasons why: 1. You state production of the II L ended in May 1943 YET production ran to January 44. Furthermore the 5cm KwK39/1 L/60 which was to arm this version of the II L was NEVER produced for the simple reason that the II L with a 5cm L/60 was cancelled in January 1943. Dig some more and you will see that the 5cm KwK/1 L/60 was never produced for the II L. BTW the II L was supposed to be called the Leopard... One thing you or von Senger Und Etterlin MAY be doing is mixing up the proposed new-built Leopards with jury-rigged Pz IIs mounting 5cm guns on battle-damaged but now repaired Pz IIs. I'd reckon that's what you're doing since I'm really, really sure no Pz II Ls with 5cm KwK39 L/60s were ever built. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted January 22, 2000 Share Posted January 22, 2000 From Chamberlain and Doyle's Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WWII (which I'm pretty sure Fionn received as a Christmas gift) it mentions that there was an order for 800 Luchs, those after the first 100 to be fitted with the 5cm gun. But as Fionn said only the first 100 with the 2cm gun were built. For those interested in technical stiff like this, pick up the Chamberlain and Doyle's encyclopedia. It's pretty cheap and a tresure trove of techie info. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zigster Posted January 22, 2000 Share Posted January 22, 2000 So two sources differ. One says there were 100 vehicles. The other, mistaken, source claims vehicles 101 to 131 were armed with the 5cm L/60. But of course that can't be. He's wrong. Curiously, there was an earlier production run of the VK1601, as a contemplated replacement for the PzKw II with much more armour, amounting to 30 vehicles. Even more curiously, its closed turrent looks eerily similar to the open topped turret of the VK1602, the prototype Leopard which was to be armed with a 5cm L/60. The chassis of the VK1601 were given over to the VK1301, which became the Lynx. I wonder what became of those thirty turrets... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 23, 2000 Share Posted January 23, 2000 I am of the opinion that Doyle is correct. There were LOTS of such vehicles that were designed, made into prototypes, had orders placed, and were never filled. And the fact that 800 were called for but only 100 were produced clearly indicates that the changes t the 50mm were dropped when the program as a whole was cancelled. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zigster Posted January 23, 2000 Share Posted January 23, 2000 Hey I'm not sayin' it SHOULD be included. I was just askin' if it WAS included, and I suppose I have my answer. I've never seen a picture of a 50mm armed Luchs in the field and there's probably a reason for that. On the other hand, when a former Wehrmacht General with a doctorate tells me there were 31 such vehicles, I have to take such a statement at face value barring convincing evidence to the contrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard III Posted January 23, 2000 Share Posted January 23, 2000 So these must be the 'missing lynx' that Darwin was looking for.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zigster Posted January 23, 2000 Share Posted January 23, 2000 Where's Mary Leakey when I need her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPeng Posted January 23, 2000 Share Posted January 23, 2000 Wow, a CIVIL disagreement. That's really cool. Guess there aren't any Americans participating in this thread or there would be much wailing, gnashing of teeth and hurt feelings, eh? Just kidding. I love reading technical stuff on this board much more than in books. Esp when there are disagreements. Its like having a ring-side seat at a debate. When you read it in a book you only get one side, one opinion and one set of "facts" Here you get lots of really smart people debating things. OK, so I'm OT. Is there a master list of reference materials on this or a linked site so chowderheads like me can go look stuff up in the library or buy books etc? There are some titles and stuff in the posts, but a big honkin list, maybe with some sort of rating system in regards to thoroughness, reliability (first hand, referenced or "hearsay"), type (plenty o' pictures or just text) &cet. That would be cool. Peng out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zigster Posted January 23, 2000 Share Posted January 23, 2000 We're not really smart people. We're just people waving different books in the air and saying, "Look, see? It's right here!" If you find a master list of reference works, I'd be glad to hear about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 23, 2000 Share Posted January 23, 2000 I'd like to commend MrPeng on recognising that I'm a "really smart person" and I'd like to say I was born with this knowledge and books have nothing to do with it . Seriously though. I know von Senger Und Etterlin says some 50mm-armed II Ls were made but no other sources I've ever seen support it. This makes it highly likely this is just an error. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindan Posted January 23, 2000 Share Posted January 23, 2000 Fionn: ...but MY brother is stronger than yours!! [This message has been edited by Lindan (edited 01-23-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 24, 2000 Share Posted January 24, 2000 LOL. Well MY MOTHER is stronger than your brother so watch it bud . Designation of Wife: PanzerFrauwagen Mark I... Why? Cause if she EVER hears she's not your number 1 then you're screwed... Or rather, never screwed again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 24, 2000 Share Posted January 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>PanzerFrauwagen Mark I<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Your mind truly twists in some strange directions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl Posted January 24, 2000 Share Posted January 24, 2000 This kind of thing always makes me wonder what would have happened if German tank production hadn't been so willy-nilly. So many variants, and one-offs. But total numbers sadly lacking..... ------------------ Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindan Posted January 25, 2000 Share Posted January 25, 2000 Fionn: Ok, I have to admit it: I have no brother. ...but this alien invasion fleet hidden on the dark side of the moon you probably heard of.... it's mine! So watch out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EJL Posted January 25, 2000 Share Posted January 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lindan: Fionn: Ok, I have to admit it: I have no brother. ...but this alien invasion fleet hidden on the dark side of the moon you probably heard of.... it's mine! So watch out! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And if your head explodes with dark forbodings too Fionn'll see you on the dark side of the moon....................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted January 25, 2000 Share Posted January 25, 2000 WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT MY DARK SIDE? Uh...err... wait, never mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EJL Posted January 26, 2000 Share Posted January 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moon: WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT MY DARK SIDE? Uh...err... wait, never mind... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> WE know everything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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