Spur of the Moment Complaining.

[MG Mannschft]

I Just dont know. I just angerly Closed the Combat Mission Gold Demo, Feeling crumby, and Irritated. Commen for someone that loses a battle (Note: against the AI). Hey it happens, first thing I thought was I should should jump right on this list (Of which I've been absent for a Little While) and complain about everything that is wrong with this silly game and how the people who thought of it, programed, and praise it should all burn in hell and how amazingly ridiculous everything has played out. (Example: The MG-42/Browning .30-06 Cal. Machine Gun crews are slower moving then infantry inwhich is completly beyond me, Or how the Stug III (All german Assualt guns)Crews are wearing black Panzer "Wraps" instead of Green, The German troops with mustaches? Talk about super-rare, Why not Sunglasses and Budweiser Drinking hats? Look at photographs when you are sitting in the Latrine scouring the pictures in your favorite WWII book -Like we all do-, you'll see the occasional Volkgrenadier or Heer soldier wearing one. Okay Okay, I'll stop, I Had to say that) I Think of myself as a pretty decent fellow when it comes to Infantry tactics, I've read the Real german Manuals (German Squad (Zug) Tactics In WWII- Softbound, by Matthew Gajkowski. A Must for a Gamer-Or Game Designer, Ahem and Re-enactor/Living historiain) and Find applying these to the game difficult, and I think the actions of shaken or moving to cover troops are very silly and bizarre. Aswell with the acuracy of the Tanks, Example: 2 Stug III's sitting/waiting readly for a lone Sherman to pop over a hill. And Pop it did, German Stug III's with "Regular" Crews, the best Optics for any Fighting Vehicles, and a wonderful 75mm L/48 Kannon Mounted...Pow..Pow... After missing about 600 Times, Both Stugs are Burning and the Sherman Triumphantly rolls torwards my Infantry. What the Heck Was that?! Yeesh, Them Good Ol' Americans, It was like a Episode of "Combat" with a Sherman Just blasting M41 Tanks like nothing. I Guess there is a Large Bad-luck Ratio played for me in this game. Time and Time again, I Depoly my troops as best as I Can, Using the LOS and full Terrian coverage but time and time again the AI moves it's Shermans Just right to the point where my Stug crews cant notice them and Knock 'em out, or there is a Tank that Appears (BAM!) Out of a Star and Gets everybody.

Frankly, All in all I think it's a Dandy Game, Steve, you guys have done a pretty darn good job. But when you set a skillfully laid out deal and some un-orgainzed Computer just rolls over you... Oh nuts..

MG

[Phandaal]

I've run into the dreaded Sherman of Deathmobile a couple of times with the stugs myself. I knocked out 4 and lost a stug. Then comes the lone nasty sherman and BAM, BAM two burning stugs. What can I say? It was a real battle after that. The ending was pretty exciting I have to admit.

2 reg squads of Volksgrenadier, and one vet squard creep up to the lone sherman that was immobilized by a well placed panzerfaust by a green unit that died heroically. I had a total of 6 panzerfaust, and it took literally the last one to kill that sherman. But, damn didn't it feel good to see that crew burn!

Luck is a dangerous weapon, for both sides.

Late,

Phandaal.

[Guest grunto]

i asked about the stugs myself... it helps if you keep them crew exposed (ce)

just after i'd written an 'article' up here about how the stugs get pummelled in that battle and how a certain american tactic would win the day, i tried what i'd written about as amis in a pbem and proceeded to a) get my shermans seperated so that they were in groups of 2 and 3 get the group of two toasted by a stug.

the stug was ce and my shermans were buttoned up (bu).

later i lost another sherman in a bungled move. i lost a lot of infantry too. he lost a bit of infantry in an infantry charge of his own.

my remaining two sherms hunted the lead stug and finally took it out so the ratio is 2:2 and none of the vehicles are in LOS of each other while he's trying to sweep an entire platoon around my right flank which i failed to protect. there's friggin german infantry everywhere. the two lines are closing from about the junction to the crest of the hill where it is open. i've got all of the 1-story buildings around the junction and he's probably got a company behind/in the church to the se of the junction. he charged my building nearest the junction and that was where he took his first major casualties. there were still a lot of americans locally which broke his gambit, at least for the time being. he smoked the place out before trying the attack. let's see what happens with the rest of the scenario.. i'd say he has the edge because he probably has more reserves and that platoon dashing up my right is disconcerting.

andy

[Guest Big Time Software]

Hmmm.... not sure how exactly to respond to this...

The nitpicks have all been made before, and are after all only nitpicks (i.e. not important). There is a reason, for example, that we don't have the feldgrau panzer wraps. Been answered before about a half dozen times. Short of it is we don't have the time or the VRAM to go putting in every possible thing into the game.

If you want to know why the MMG crews move slower, do a Search on this BBS. Some guys that did this for a living for a couple of years seemed to understand why.

As for your StuGs brewing up... **** happens. The German tanks, as good as they were, did not have laser range finders and the Will Of God behind each and every shot. If you miss, you miss. The odds of you hitting in the circumstances you described are certainly much better than those of the Sherman crews, so if you don't like the odds you should be arguing with the mathematical theories behind them, not the game. And why is it that nobody complains when they kill something with their first shot when the other vehicle has done nothing but miss? Selective complaining is a tried and true wargaming trait.

And so far as not being able to replicate stuff in tactics books (yes, we both have Gajkowski's book along with many others), I am at a real loss for an answer. Everybody, including 20+ year veterans, seem to disagree with you. I know we do. So either you are doing something wrong (i.e. not utilizing the game system correctly) or you are not as good as you think as far as tactics go. Since you don't have the 180 page manual yet, it might just be because you are doing something incorrectly.

Sorry if your comments aren't really being taken too seriously, but that is about the best reaction I can muster.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 06-03-2000).]

[MG Mannschft]

Yeesh.

I Guess that is what happens when I Try to be nice about it.... I am not going to turn this into a "My Daddy's Better then Yours" Deal. Steve, you must of delt with so many jerks like me, You've become nice and Bitter-sweet.

One thing that computers will never have is a non-mathimatical rolling the dice gambling system I Guess. War being the Mathimatical Equasion I am glad it's not. We Could Win wars by card-counting. I May just be a Weekend Warrior, and not a combat veteran. But Actually wearing the Gear. The Tunic, Counting the Stiches in reproductions, The Helmet, The Real Vintage Weapons, Gives you the best perspective. Feeling the Kamaradie of the other Soldiers you are fighting with. And to, The Enemy in Respect. Instead of sitting infront of a Rotating Calculator Gambling machine, Crossing my fingers just hoping I get lucky.

Regarding U.S. Machine Gun Crews, The book "Guadalcanal Diary" Written By the famous War Corispondent Richard Tregaskis, On to which he speaks with admeration of the American "Heavy weapons" crews, On how they "Just didnt care" They often found themselves ahead of the normal Infantry, luging the Browning .30 Cal and .50 Cals.

I have already spoke earlier of the MG-42's Mobility, when used on it's Tripod. Carrying one for 4 Days at a Time, much less then the 30 odd minutes in the game, and keeping high mobily is done. The 3rd man in my Team Carries the Tripod and a K98. Keeps up with us just fine.

You are Right though, I am not Battlion Commander Materiral. But I think I know from not only Reading acounts of Veterans (Yeah, Mostly German: My Loyalty is my Honor: Written by Gordan Williamson)and Speaking with them...

Aw Forget it. What's doen is done, and I Did turn this into a "My Dad's Better then Yours."

MG

[tss]

I happen to have a table of tank kills that the gunners of the Finnish Panzerjaeger Batallion achieved during summer '44. At the time the gunners were all veterans who had served at least three years. (Finnish practice was to put the best man in a gun crew as a gunner.) The unit used towed versions of the same gun that Stugs used.

Here are the entries for the battle of Polviselkä 11.6.1944: (this is poorly formatted, because I'm yet again writing from home. Also note that it is possible that the KV-1 tanks were actually JS-II tanks since tank recognition was not a precision science with Finnish troops, not even with AT troops.)

- a KV tank brewed up with 3rd shot (range 150m)

- two T-34/85s brewed up. First with 6 shots and second with 5 shots (150-200 m)

- One T-34-85 and 3 KV-1s. First and second with 2nd shot and third with 1st shot. (100-300 meters)

- one KV-1 with first shot (250m)

- one KV-1 brewed up with 3rd shot (40 m)

- three KV-1s. No ammo expenditure known

- one KV-1 and 1 T-34/85, both with first shot (200m and 74m)

As can seen from the entries, destroying a tank with a first shot was not a rule and there's the interesting case of using three rounds at the range of 40 meters. On the next day the 4th AT gun company that was armed with 50 mm guns had a battle against tanks. They destroyed 8 tanks (6 T-34 and 2 KV-1) the ammo expenditures were pretty high because 50mm pak was not too powerful gun: 12, 13, 41!, 9, 9, 9, 16. It is not known how many shots were used at the Klims. - Tommi

[MG Mannschft]

Tss, You've misunderstood what I wrote. I ment Miss'es, not actual Hits on the target and also, these are all Red army Tanks, Not Shermans. Quite a Difference I'd say.

MG

[Guest Big Time Software]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Regarding U.S. Machine Gun Crews, The book "Guadalcanal Diary" Written By the famous War Corispondent Richard Tregaskis, On to which he speaks with admeration of the American "Heavy weapons" crews, On how they "Just didnt care" They often found themselves ahead of the normal Infantry, luging the Browning .30 Cal and .50 Cals.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Clearly he's describing a disregard for their personal safety, not that they beat the riflemen in an all-out footrace. He's talking about who's willing to put themselves out in front, not who has the fastest running speed. We are talking about top speed here - and the two are quite different.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I have already spoke earlier of the MG-42's Mobility, when used on it's Tripod. Carrying one for 4 Days at a Time, much less then the 30 odd minutes in the game, and keeping high mobily is done. The 3rd man in my Team Carries the Tripod and a K98. Keeps up with us just fine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The key question is how much ammunition are your MG men carrying? The MG ammo bearers in CM are assumed to be lugging around over 55 pounds (25 kilos) just of ammunition for the MG, not even including their sidearms, helmets, tools, canteens, etc.

The majority of the weight is not the MG42 itself, or its tripod; it's the ammunition. And CM HMG teams are assumed to carry a lot of it. I suspect that you and your 3-man MG team are carrying around a much lighter load of ammunition than the CM HMG42 teams are.

Each German squad in CM has an MG42 - in the LMG configuration. These MG42 gunners can "keep up" with the riflemen in their squads just fine, because they're carrying less gear for the MG, and more importantly, they have less ammo to lug around. The HMG configuration - the one you're complaining about - is an entirely different story because of the large ammo load. You just can't move fast with all of that metal! It's more than just a tripod required to make an "HMG" in CM. It takes a whole bucketload of bullets - and the MG42 uses them up fast so a lot need to be carried by the team.

HMGs are largely a defensive and/or support weapon, not meant for spearheading attacks.

Charles

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 06-03-2000).]

[Spook]

This isn't exactly comparable, but as a weightlifter for the last 14 years, I certainly know the feeling of what it's like to lug 50 lbs. (22.7 kilos) over even a short distance. Nope, it's definitely not a "sprint" job.

[Darstand]

Three StugIII crest a hill. Behold what do they see 4 Shermans. The three Stugs fire nearly at the same time. 3 Shermans die. The 4 rth shortly there after. One Stug lost to gun damage. War is heck. I have never read a a tactical book in fact this is my first war game. And except for the very first game of CM I played. I have never lost to the computer. Now people on the other hand. Well I am 3 outa 5. I wish people would quit complaining about minor details like mustashes and black uniforms. Hmmm to stop the rambling post.

[Guest Germanboy]

MG Mannschaft, what I fail to understand is how you can take a weekend re-enactment experience as the basis for making statements about the physical abilities of soldiers in war. Any first person account I read mentions exhaustion, lack of sleep, lack of decent food, continuous stress under fire. When you go to a re-enactment you have been well-fed and presumably slept a decent amount before you start. I also understand that you have social gatherings during these things where you can just wind down and you know it will be over on Sunday evening. Now imagine you have been in combat for two weeks, food has been irregular and when it arrived consisted of low-nutritional value sh*te, you have slept an average of 3hrs/night, always half awake, etc.pp. If that does not have an effect on your physical abilities despite the mitigating effects of adrenaline during combat, I don't know what will.

I did my basic training in the German army and on one occasion I was privileged to do perimeter guard duty during a snowstorm, with base about 20min walk from my MG post. I got 1.5hrs sleep about three times that night, was soaked and ate combat rations. If someone had asked me to run with a heavy load the next day, I would have told them what I thought their mother was.

This is not meant as a flame or something, and maybe I miss something fundamental about re-enactments, never having been to one.

Sorry for the ramble.

------------------

Andreas

It is amazing what you can learn from a good book... (and reality, for that matter)

Edited for typos

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 06-03-2000).]

[Blackhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss:

- a KV tank brewed up with 3rd shot (range 150m)

- two T-34/85s brewed up. First with 6 shots and second with 5 shots (150-200 m)

- One T-34-85 and 3 KV-1s. First and second with 2nd shot and third with 1st shot. (100-300 meters)

- one KV-1 with first shot (250m)

- one KV-1 brewed up with 3rd shot (40 m)

- three KV-1s. No ammo expenditure known

- one KV-1 and 1 T-34/85, both with first shot (200m and 74m)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good god man, they must have been ******* bricks !! You really can't help but admire those Finnish gunners after reading that one. That is some very close combat.

[tss]

MG Mannschft wrote:

Tss, You've misunderstood what I wrote. I ment Miss'es, not actual Hits on the target and also, these are all Red army Tanks, Not Shermans. Quite a Difference I'd say.

It's not clear how many of the shots were misses and how many hit but failed to penetrate in the Polviselkä example. The guns were positioned so that they could usually get flank shots so I guess that in the case of T-34s one hit was enough to disable it. However, a gunner may have continued firing at the tank until it was clearly destroyed, ie, until it was burning or exploded. The case of KV tanks is not so clear since they may have been, in fact, JS-II tanks. The 75mm pak couldn't reliably penetrate JS-II from front so there may have been more non-killing hits.

(As an example of true blind luck, I could mention that a couple of days after that one Finnish 37mm AT gun managed to destroy a KV-1 from _front_. First shot hit the bow MG mount and knocked it loose. The second shot entered the same hole and blew up the ammo of the tank.)

Blackhorse wrote:

Good god man, they must have been ******* bricks !! You really can't help but admire those Finnish gunners after reading that one. That is some very close combat.

They were also helped by the terrain. The region was forested and there were only two good "panzer trails" in the area. One electric line and one road. Since it was clear where the tanks would attack, the AT guns could be positioned up in hills firing at the flanks of the Red tanks.

The really tough guys were the Finnish close-defence teams that stalked Red tanks with fausts and schrecks. For example, private Eero Seppänen saw a Panzerschreck for the first time on the morning of 28 June. By the afternoon he had fired a total of four shots with the weapon and destroyed 3 T-34s. (The first shot went over a T-34 because he didn't know how to aim the thing, yet).

During that and the next day private 1st class Ville Väisänen destroyed 8 Soviet tanks with Panzerfausts (the 60-meter model). On 29 June Väisänen disappeared during a artillery barrage when he was on his way to get more fausts.

Both Seppänen and Väisänen received Mannerheim's crosses.

- Tommi

[Joe Shaw]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>(As an example of true blind luck, I could mention that a couple of days after that one Finnish 37mm AT gun managed to destroy a KV-1 from _front_. First shot hit the bow MG mount and knocked it loose. The second shot entered the same hole and blew up the ammo of the tank.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two things come to mind immmediately:

1) What size cojones does it take to stand up to a KV-1, frontally, with a crummy 37mm AT gun, AND take two shots at it?

2) How can I get that same gun and crew and ... let me make this perfectly clear ... their luck, for my games in CM?

BTW, are there any plans for including the Finns in either CM2 (East Front) or CM4 (Early War, I think it's CM4)?

Joe

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"I don't want them brave, I want them dead!"

Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe Shaw:

1) What size cojones does it take to stand up to a KV-1, frontally, with a crummy 37mm AT gun, AND take two shots at it?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

These guys were gutsy, oh my. I would have been somewhere in Sweden at this point. Hats off. Can I have Finnish loan crews for my Schrecks?

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Andreas

It is amazing what you can learn from a good book...

[Hakko Ichiu]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

These guys were gutsy, oh my. I would have been somewhere in Sweden at this point. Hats off. Can I have Finnish loan crews for my Schrecks?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, maybe they wouldn't break and run like your panty-waisted Luftwaffe retreads

What has yet to be established is the effectiveness of Finnish Porzellanspülbecken teams, given the lack of plumbing infrastructure in the area around Lake Ladoga.

Ethan

-----------

Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

[This message has been edited by Hakko Ichiu (edited 06-03-2000).]

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hakko Ichiu:

Yes, maybe they wouldn't break and run like your panty-waisted Luftwaffe retreads

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just wanted to experience how you felt in our first game The shame, the horror, the horror...

Caught myself a smilie...

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Andreas

It is amazing what you can learn from a good book...

[MG Mannschft]

Germanboy, Come to one of our regular re-enactments, You'll find it tougher (but not longer) then Basic. Our XO for our second squad was a Marine for 6 years. And Easly claims that you get more training through a re-enactment then he ever did in the Corps. Same with our Unit Commander, In the 82nd Airborne. About Half of our Personel is Ex-Military.

http://www.optimumlogic.com/pnwhg/

Dont Forget we are the Perimer Vietnam Re-enactment Group in the States, Check out the 1st Air Mobile Cav. Site While (If) you're there!

Steve, You Straitened me out.

MG

[MG Mannschft]

(Steve, You should come Along too, Iron Rations can be eaten in the field when Ordered, and try to keep your Canteen Filled, Shaking some morning dew off of the Leaves helps.)

MG

[MG Mannschft]

Spook. If you are talking about the MG-42's Weight, It is most deffinitly not 50 .lbs I Wieghed mine on the Scale with a Belt of 50 Rounds in the Assault Drum, comes up to 13.50

Kg. (Remember, Unlike how is shown in CM, The Gun quickly and easly detaches from the Laffete mount in Seconds.)

MG

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

And how much did the ammunition weigh MG Mannschft?

You still did not address that......

[MG Mannschft]

I Did Address it my friend, I ment total weight with the Assualt Drum Attached.

MG

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MG Mannschft:

I Did Address it my friend, I ment total weight with the Assualt Drum Attached.

MG<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think what he meant is how much does the ammo needed for the team to participate and contribute meaningfully in a nice little firefight and two counterattacks weigh, how much is that divided by 5 (assuming the guy with the tripod and the gun take half a load of ammo) and what would the effect of that on the running speed of the team be. Then factor in malnutrition, lack of sleep, general exhaustion etc.pp. Also that these soldiers often would be less fit than we are, because they grew up in very lean times, unless they were from a farm.

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Andreas

It is amazing what you can learn from a good book...

[Guest MantaRay]

MG Mannschft,

Sorry bro, not to sound as though I am better than you or saying that what you do is not fun or whatever, but re-enactments are nothing like real battles, and who really cares if the MG team doesnt run very fast in CM.

As for re-enacting, I find that most of you who do this, think that because you spend a weekend outside of your homes that you are now experts in every detail about warfare. Eating K Rations or MRE's and running around with guns w/o live ammo, doesn't a soldier make.

Sadly, this bothers me and I would think many others who have been in service of thier countries would be bothered too. We are professionals who dont take our jobs as a joke nor as a form of entertainment to occupy our free time. It is our way of life, and our lives are on the line and every mistake we make costs our buddies thier lives...or our own.

Running around in a nice neat battle area knowing you get to come home on Sunday night is like comparing Panzers to Abrams...

Sorry if I offended anyone, but it is my opinion.

Ray

BTW I will get into full gear with my M4 and you take the .50 and we will race. J/k

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When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one."

MantaRays 5 Pages

Hardcore Gamers Daily

[Guest grunto]

...the point is though that we're not discussing just the weight of your mg42 in the sim with 50 rounds (13kg) but making the point that in ww2 the mg42 heavy crews were carrying 50lbs of ammo to sustain the thing. 50 rounds of ammo is nothing on an mg42.. my understanding was that a light combat load was something like 3,000 rounds and a heavy load could be around 6,000.

that would definitely put a crimp in anyone's sprint... now if the game doesn't already have it, maybe the mg teams could move faster when they're low on ammow... perhaps some fuzzy weight-of-all-hardware-including-remaining-ammo/active-crew-members=unit-speed

andy