CM screen real estate

[Jeff Heidman]

I am hoping that someone will tell me that the games layout for the main screen will not be the same as the deoms.

Considering how much info is in this game, it is an abslolute shame to waste real estate on Bigtime software logos. I am hoping that is just for the demo, and the game I am going to pay money for will dispense with advertisements within the game.

Also, why is the info for the units so limited? Is there any reason the info screen could not display all the information for the unit and its weapons? Like accuracy at range, both penetration and HE values, special ammunition, etc., etc?

Jeff

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

Considering how much info is in this game, it is an abslolute shame to waste real estate on Bigtime software logos.

Also, why is the info for the units so limited?Like accuracy at range, both penetration and HE values, special ammunition, etc., etc?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think of the BTS logos as some brand symbol of a company that is proud of its product, as well they should be. I don't mind them being there at all.

For the additional info, I don't need it at my fingertips, I find the solution with a pop-up screen quite satisfactory, and think more info on the screen would just clutter it and lead to less immersion. I think it is well-designed. The lesser the better. But I lived in Japan for two years, that must have affected my taste.

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Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

[Guest Big Time Software]

The logos only occupy space that cannot be seen when playing at 640x480 resolution. If we put something important there, you would not be able to access it when playing at 640x480.

To get more detailed data on a unit, click it (to select it) then press ENTER. A window will pop up with a lot of useful data.

Charles

[Guest Madmatt]

Wait a minute Charles?!? You mean my face DOESN'T pop up at the corners in the release version?!? But but...You promised!

Madmatt

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[Gen. Sosaboski]

That's a shame Madmatt, but I think I heard them talking about putting in the POO Mk IV and warm "Shut the Hell Up" Juice in as "special units".

[Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

Also, why is the info for the units so limited? Is there any reason the info screen could not display all the information for the unit and its weapons? Like accuracy at range, both penetration and HE values, special ammunition, etc., etc?

Jeff<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Check the Hot Keys menu, my man! All the information you want and much more is available from the Unit Info Box, it will also tell you the amount of kills that a particular unit has racked up.

It tells you:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI> Type

<LI> Top Speed

<LI> Engine

<LI> Weight

<LI> Ground Pressure

<LI> etc..

<LI> Armor thickness/slope

<LI> Armament

<LI> Penetration table

What more could you want? All you have to do is hit "Enter/Return" with a unit selected.

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Finally........Maximus...has come back.....to the Forum!!!

[Jeff Heidman]

Sorry, I guess I should ahve amde that more clear.

I know about the pop up screen with additional info, I jsut wanted to know why it was missing some stuff.

Like ->

How accurate is this weapon at various ranges?

Does it have any special ammo, and if so, what are the pen values for that?

What is the effectiveness of its machine guns (for an AFV)?

Stuff like that. The current info is noce, but if you are going to have that info in a pop-up screen, you might as well make it more complete.

Jeff

[DrD]

Penetration for special ammo is included, if you look closely you'll see 2 different sets of penetration data, one for AP and one for special (or one for HE and one for HEAT). Also, I belive the firepower for MG is included. As for accuracy, what do you mean? Accuracy depends on about 100 different factors like 1 vs. subsequent shots, moving vs. stationary (target and firer), LOS strength, creww experience, etc. The only thing affecting accuracy that is easily quantifiable is muzzle velocity which IS given (I think).

Also, for the record, BTS can put their damn logo anywhere they want including MY BUTT!

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DrD:

Penetration for special ammo is included, if you look closely you'll see 2 different sets of penetration data, one for AP and one for special (or one for HE and one for HEAT). Also, I belive the firepower for MG is included. As for accuracy, what do you mean? Accuracy depends on about 100 different factors like 1 vs. subsequent shots, moving vs. stationary (target and firer), LOS strength, creww experience, etc. The only thing affecting accuracy that is easily quantifiable is muzzle velocity which IS given (I think).

Also, for the record, BTS can put their damn logo anywhere they want including MY BUTT!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, ignoring your interest in their logo, what I was interested in as far as accuracy goes is weapon accuracy at various ranges. For instance, it would be nice to know (for example) that a PanzerSchreck, while it can hit out to some given range x, is not verry effective beyond x-y.

What about a Panzerfaust?

Further, there are significant issues involved in accuracy that are relevant to the weapon. Certainly muzzle velocity is one of those, but optics are another. Are they modelled, or are two weapons with equivalent muzzle velocities always equally accurate? That would be unfortunate.

As far as the logo goes, I guess they can place it anywhere they like. If they want, they could park a giant BIGTIME across the middle of the screen if they like. I would claim that it detracts from the game though. And I would also claim that wasting screen real estate with logos detracts somewhat from the game. I *know* that I will have bought the game from Bigtime, I do not need them to remind me every time I play.

Jeff

[DrD]

Jeff,

Sorry if I sounded a little hostile. You raise some very good points. I'm not sure how accuracy is modeled vis-a-vis optics and such. Unfortunately, BTS is under alot of time constraint (just do a search under "shipping" or "gold demo" or "when?" and you'll see what I mean) and they couldn't include everything. A bit more info may be for the next version. I hope you'll agree, however, that CM is still the most detailed, realistic, and just plain fun wargame ever!

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

For instance, it would be nice to know (for example) that a PanzerSchreck, while it can hit out to some given range x, is not verry effective beyond x-y.

What about a Panzerfaust?

And I would also claim that wasting screen real estate with logos detracts somewhat from the game. I *know* that I will have bought the game from Bigtime, I do not need them to remind me every time I play.

Jeff<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, the logo story has been adressed, and I think that is nitpicking.

The accuracy or penetration probability, which is not the same, but I guess you mean the latter, is given to you any time you aim at a tank with a Schreck. Fausts have a statement (-30, -60, -100) in the window, and that is their kill range. The Schreck has a statement of its maximum range in the window. Because of the technical aspects of the weapon, AFAIK they can penetrate at any range, as long as they hit. So what else can you want?

As for optics, I think this has been discussed quite extensively, and I suggest a search. I am not sure about the final outcome of the discussions.

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Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

[Murx]

Another point on weapons would be underrange! Is that point included. As far as I know Panzerfausts & Schreks had a minimum useful range, as all weapons of tanks have. They just cant shoot at targets closer then 15 m in most cases. the main gun has even a larger dead fire arc ...

murx

(Just wondering whats in CM I havent discovered yet :")

[Screaming Demon]

Why doesnt it tell you what the squad leader had for breakfast? Because it has no relevence to the game.

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Well, the logo story has been adressed, and I think that is nitpicking.

The accuracy or penetration probability, which is not the same, but I guess you mean the latter, is given to you any time you aim at a tank with a Schreck. Fausts have a statement (-30, -60, -100) in the window, and that is their kill range. The Schreck has a statement of its maximum range in the window. Because of the technical aspects of the weapon, AFAIK they can penetrate at any range, as long as they hit. So what else can you want?

As for optics, I think this has been discussed quite extensively, and I suggest a search. I am not sure about the final outcome of the discussions.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I suppose it could be said that the logo is nitpicking. Shrug. I do not think so, or I would not have bothered posting.

AS far as your other point, what I want is for the unit detail screen to show me the base accuracy of weapons at various ranges. I know quite well that a HEAT rounds penetration values are largely impervious to range, but before you can penetrate you have to hit. It would be nice to be able to look at the detail window to see what the effective range is so I know where is a reasonable place to set up an ambush.

Yes, I realize that when I target a unit it tells me the probability of a hit, but I would like to know that the woods are too far away from the road *before* I am in a position to shoot.

Its not a big deal, but it is just something that I think would be a small improvement. I am not asking them to delay shipping or something. I am certainly going to buy the game, and expect to enjoy it greatly. Remarking on some definicencies is not incompatible with having a positive attitude towards the product, nor is constrcutive criticism indicative of nitpicking.

I am assuming that given enough support there will be a CM 2 in the future. There may also be patches or improvements made to the game engine. Why not discuss what might make the game better?

BTW, does anyone know if firing a weapon with backblast inside a building is a BAD THING in Combat Missions?

Jeff

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Screaming Demon:

Why doesnt it tell you what the squad leader had for breakfast? Because it has no relevence to the game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this addressed to me?

If so, are you seriously suggesting that the accuracy of a weapon has no relevance to the game?

If not, then ignore this post...

Jeff

[Buckeye]

Yes, firing a weapon with a backblast has the potential to be destructive, both to fellow troops in the same building and (I believe) to the building itself (i.e., it can cause the building to catch fire).

Logo? Who cares about a stinking logo? If I designed a game this good, I'd sure as hell want something to remind the users who they owe their good forture to.

[Lorak]

As for the logo.. I don't mind (but then I don't play in 600x800 so I don't see it.)

As for accuracy.. I have no idea what you want. A weapons effective range is its effective range. If your guys can hit what they are shooting at is a whole new ballgame. Unless your looking for something totally useless like "this weapon has a noticable drop of 6.8 inches at 1000 meters so train your men to fire accordingly" or "at 500 meters you have a 99.9% chance of hitting an airplane hanger, For targets smaller than this adjust accordingly."

As for backblast.. Yes they are bad in an enclosed area. They can set the building on fire,ect.. This also can happen outside in dry conditions.

Sorry for the ramble

Lorak

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http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub

Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring

[aka_tom_w]

Hi Jeff,

Three Words Here:

Fog Of War

I like the idea that every little detail or fact or figure is not exactly available. I think that if you are in position to fire your weapon and then you target something there should be even LESS info available to the player than there is now. I would like to see a range of numbers say fire power 78 + or - 15% or like this 78 +/- 15 and on the chance to hit or chance to kill I think a range of percentages should be given, thus making the game "feel" more organic and less of just a numbers game (which I know that behind all the eyecandy thats exactly what it is, a VERY elaborate numbers game).

My point is that I think the game is the way it is because the user interfance was designed (I don't speak for BTS here, as this JUST my own opinion) to try to get away from just calculating out all the odds and numbers in your head and memorizing Combat result tables to minimize or maximize the odds any one particular result.

I still think they have not gone far enough to simulate the fog of war, one thing this game really encourages (it's part of their mind control algorythym protocol ) is MORE play, as a commander/player you require experience to get a feel for what different weapons can do, I like the fact that with experience useing all these weapons and unit types I can get a feel for what they are likely to hit and what they are likely to miss. I think the game is designed this way with the intention that hard facts and figures are somewhat elusive, for instance you as a commander cannot know (without expereince) how far that tank, at top speed, will go down that road in the next minute. I think this is well done.

I really enjoy the fact that all these kinds of little details are things you have to figure out by playing the game.

I like the user interface just the way it is.

And as I mentioned I would like the game to model more fog of war and greater level of uncertainty when firepower and chance to hit or chance to kill are shown by the targeting tool. I'm suggesting that the uncertainty is already there in the "hit or miss" algorythym and it works well the way it is so there is no need in my opinion to change that, I'm just suggesting that less accurate targeting info should be available to the commander or the player to simulate the fact that when you aim your weapon and target something the exact percent or odds of a hit do not show up in your scope or range finder. Sure the accurate distance is important, I know there were no laser range finders in WW II but giveing the targeting tool an accurate range finding ability does not provide exact odds of a hit or a miss. And it works fairly well the way it is.

-tom w

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

Is this addressed to me?

If so, are you seriously suggesting that the accuracy of a weapon has no relevance to the game?

If not, then ignore this post...

Jeff

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "Have you thanked BTS by buying your SECOND copy of CM yet?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 06-13-2000).]

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorak:

As for the logo.. I don't mind (but then I don't play in 600x800 so I don't see it.)

As for accuracy.. I have no idea what you want. A weapons effective range is its effective range. If your guys can hit what they are shooting at is a whole new ballgame. Unless your looking for something totally useless like "this weapon has a noticable drop of 6.8 inches at 1000 meters so train your men to fire accordingly" or "at 500 meters you have a 99.9% chance of hitting an airplane hanger, For targets smaller than this adjust accordingly."

As for backblast.. Yes they are bad in an enclosed area. They can set the building on fire,ect.. This also can happen outside in dry conditions.

Sorry for the ramble

Lorak

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not sure how I can explain it any more clearly. An weapons effective range is NOT equal to its range. All I am asking is for a simple table, much like what already exists for squads and their personal weapons, listing some base odds for hitting at various ranges. Presumably something starting at some high number for short ranges and dropping to near zero at the weapons maximum range.

It could simply look like this:

Panzerfaust-100

Range-------------Hit Chance

0-30m --------------70%

30-60m -------------50%

60-90m -------------15%

90-100m ------------5%

Or whatever the numbers happen to be. From that table, I will know that while my 'faust might have a range of 100m, it is definitely a good idea to try to get a shot under 60m.

I know, you are saying, "Well, duh, of course it is better to be closer, I do not need a table to see that!" But the reality is that various weapons have extremely different accuracy curves at various ranges. A high velocity shell, for instance, is going to have a much, much flatter hit curve than a Piat, or even a HEAT shell. I would like to know what those curves look like, just like I already know what they look like for the effectivenss of personal weapons. For instance, I could tell you that the max range of a Thompson sub-machine gun is 200m. This is not all that useful though, since the effective range is actually under 50m. A sub-machine gun has an extremely curved effectiveness at range graph, as oppsoed to a MG, which does not (more linear).

Jeff

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

Hi Jeff,

Three Words Here:

Fog Of War

I like the idea that every little detail or fact or figure is not exactly available. I think that if you are in position to fire your weapon and then you target something there should be even LESS info available to the player than there is now. I would like to see a range of numbers say fire power 78 + or - 15% or like this 78 +/- 15 and on the chance to hit or chance to kill I think a range of percentages should be given, thus making the game "feel" more organic and less of just a numbers game (which I know that behind all the eyecandy thats exactly what it is, a VERY elaborate numbers game).

<snip>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree completely. But I think you are thinking of something different from what I am thinking of. I am thinking of nothing more than a conpletely static display showing the properties of the weapon. This would surely be known by the combatants using them.

Personally, I would not mind at all if the current X% chance of a hit displayed when you target something was replaced by something like "High" or "Low" or whatever.

Jeff

[aka_tom_w]

ok,

Just trying to understand your position here.

Are you suggesting that when you hit the return key to get unit info, there is not enough facts and figures and info weapon capibility properties there, or are you suggesting that you don't like to have to hit the return key to get that info?

unclear?

-tom w

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

I am thinking of nothing more than a conpletely static display showing the properties of the weapon. This would surely be known by the combatants using them.

\

Jeff<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "Have you thanked BTS by buying your SECOND copy of CM yet?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Lorak]

Jeff,

Actualy your last post made it clear what you were asking for. As for my reply.

I really doesn't think it matters in CM's scope. For a squad's personal weapons the "effective" range is a lot shorter than any drop you need to be worried about. (and those firepower ranges are given). For Big weapons, IF guns,AP rounds,heat,ect.. the drop rates really won't come into effect due to map size either. Unless your firing from one end of a map to the other, and even then the map would have to be very large for it to have much effect. Your crews being able to hit something at 2000+ meters is more of a factor than the drop that would occur.

For your sholder fired AT weapons I see your point. But this really doesn't take more than a game or two of using them to figure out.

I guess I see your point, I'm just don't think its nessasary.

Lorak

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http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub

Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring

[MuaHaHaHa]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

It could simply look like this:

Panzerfaust-100

Range-------------Hit Chance

0-30m --------------70%

30-60m -------------50%

60-90m -------------15%

90-100m ------------5%<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can understand why this table might be helpful if there actual was a hit chance that could be narrowed down to a couple of percentage points. However, because of the many variables CM calculates, a table like this would probably look like this:

Panzerfaust-100

Range-------------Hit Chance

0-30m --------------1-100%

30-60m -------------1-100%

60-90m -------------1-100%

90-100m ------------1-100%

If there was one table which stated the range of a Panzerfaust that accounted for all the variables in CM it would not be very helpful which is why there is none and should be none.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Hi Jeff,

Documenting stuff like this has no end. Where do you draw the line before the interface is hopelessly cluttered with information that isn't very usefull from a practical standpoint? Someone could easily say we should document all sorts of stuff, but the more we do the more CM turns into a spreadsheet and the less of a reflection on the imperfect nature of warfare and command decisions.

The only reason we include the penetration charts is because it really does matter in some situations and, most importantly, can not be picked up intuitively (unless you have a Jagdtiger which means you can kill anything at any range ). Therefore the penetration charts are an exception.

An accuracy table like you described isn't very usefull. First of all, it is pretty obvious that the closer the target is the greater the chance that you will hit it. And that if you hit it the damage will be the same pretty much no matter the distance.

The other reason this info is largely useless is that your guys will shoot when they think they have a decent chance of hitting. Why do you need to know what the chance is above and beyond what is displayed when you target a particular unit? I have been playing CM since it was started and I have never ever felt this information was even remotely necessary.

In general CM is designed to be played intuitively. A guy with a Panzerfaust was not given a chart telling him the basic hit chance at various ranges. Intuition and experience were all he had. And that is the way players should go about things. To diminish this is to reduce the quality of the game's simulation as well as its ease of use.

Murx, as for minimum ranges, yes... almost all weapons (besides small arms) have minimum ranges. MGs on second floors even have minimum ranges due to the impracticallity of leaning them out the window to hit what is below them.

Steve

P.S. Also note that after 55,000 posts and tens of thousands of games played by thousands of people, this is the first time someone has asked for such an accuracy chart. If such a thing were needed I *know* we would have heard about it a long time ago

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 06-13-2000).]

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

ok,

Just trying to understand your position here.

Are you suggesting that when you hit the return key to get unit info, there is not enough facts and figures and info weapon capibility properties there, or are you suggesting that you don't like to have to hit the return key to get that info?

unclear?

-tom w

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom, I am saying that when you hit the Enter key, I would like some more specific information.

I think it got confused because, as a seperate issue, I mentioned that I thought the Bigtime Logo on the main screen (apparently only in 800x600) was a waste of valuable screen real estate, and that that space could be better used.

Jeff