I wish you could use captured vehicles

[Panzer Grenadier]

I noted when readig numerous WW2 books that forces on both sides used captured vehicles. Once while in the Ardennes, 101st Airborne troops used captured Panzer mk.ivs against the Germans!!!!!

Feel free to post you feelings or concerns.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panzer Grenadier:

I noted when readig numerous WW2 books that forces on both sides used captured vehicles. Once while in the Ardennes, 101st Airborne troops used captured Panzer mk.ivs against the Germans!!!!!

Feel free to post you feelings or concerns.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Has been discussed a lot of times. Bottomline was, IIRC, that within the scope of a CM game that was so rare that it does not warrant modeling and would lead to gamey behaviour. As you say: "once". I have read quite a bit in recent times, and this is the first mention I have for that on the Western Front.

The Germans used a lot of captured vehicles, and even planes (KG200 flew a number of B-17, Lancaster etc.), but that was not based on an on-the-spot occurence of a couple of Landser spotting a Sherman, hopping into it and going into the attack.

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Andreas

[tss]

I agree with Andreas. In most cases captured vehicles were not taken immedietely in combat. Usually they would be recovered by special units looking for battlefield salvage, repaired and refitted before being allocated to some unit. There were exceptions, though. I can remember only three cases where captured enemy tanks were taken directly to new combat. However, in two cases the tanks were not used in the combat they were captured, but on the next day. The first happened in late July (IIRC) 1941 when Lauri Törni's company captured two or three T-28s intact and decided to use them. So, for a couple of days Törni's infantry company had an organic tank support platoon before the higher officers heard of it and decided that the tanks would be of more use in hands of experienced crews. As none of the company were tankers, the tanks were not too effective but at least they gave moral support. The second case happened in October '41 when a Soviet T-34 immobilized when its driver damaged the gearbox by

driving on a treestump. Finnish tank-driver sergeant Lauri Heino managed to sneak to the tank, repair the gearbox, and drive away. When he was on his way back with his new tank Soviets tried to ambush the tank but they were beaten back. The final case was a JSU-152 that was captured at Portinhoikka 25.6.1944 (again by Heino) and sent to combat. It was lost two days later when three T-34-85s opened fire at it when it advanced as the point tank of a counter attack.

- Tommi

[Formerly Babra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The Crocodiles were put with a division which was to do the final mopping up.

While they waited for orders, the crews went out into the surrounding woods, where Duffy had given permission to look for souveniers.

At first they came back with the usual German helmets, which would be hung around the tank for a few days and then thrown away. Then word went 'round that there was better stuff to be had. The rugger coach came in with a battered Opel two-seater, and someone else with an amphibious Volkswagen. Sherrif's crew arrived, riding on a half-track. It became a kind of competetive treasure hunt. MacFarland, who was in charge of the squadron transport now, came in with a big bus, painted in Wehrmacht camouflage and full of Panzerfausts.

"What the hell do you think you're going to do with that lot?" said Duffy, regarding them like children on a Sunday School treat.

"Take them along with us," said Sherrif.

"Oh no you won't -- not if the regiment knows anything about it."

"The bus would make a fine squadron office," said MacFarland, who knew the right approach.

Duffy thought about it.

"Let's see the thing," he said. MacFarland ran after the bus, which a sergeant was racing around a field, still full of Panzerfausts.

"All right," said Duffy when he had seen the inside. "We'll take the bus. But don't go telling everyone about it."

"What about the Opel?" said the rugger coach. "It would always be useful when the scout car's busy."

"All right," said Duffy. "Keep it hidden among the fifteen-hundred-weights."

"What about the half-track?" said Sherrif. "Surely no one would mind a little half-track."

"And the Volkswagen, sir."

"All right," said Duffy resignedly. "But nothing else! Not another frigging thing."

Just then there was a heavy rumbling. Something quite enormous was pushing its way through the trees. Sergeant Pye and his fitters appeared, roaring with triumph, sitting on a Panther.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From "Flamethrower" by Andrew Wilson.

[This message has been edited by Formerly Babra (edited 06-25-2000).]

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Formerly Babra:

From "Flamethrower" by Andrew Wilson.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Proves the point I made rather nicely, actually. Fitters were REME, IIRC - so they would be the guys repairing stuff, in the rear echelons, not in front-line combat.

And the whole story (great one, BTW) takes place while they wait for orders, during mopping up, in an area where apparently there is no more combat. QED, I would say.

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Andreas

[Formerly Babra]

You will notice I didn't take any stand on the issue

Actually, the Panther was left behind (obviously), but the rest of the vehicles continued with the squadron.

[ntg84]

Once the North African version comes out this will have to be a must becasue both sides were so desperate for transport. It would be nice to se some FAMO's or something towing vehicles back to a repair shop. Or field mechanics that fix a broken or abandoned vehicle.

[OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer!]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ntg84:

It would be nice to se some FAMO's or something towing vehicles back to a repair shop. Or field mechanics that fix a broken or abandoned vehicle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only place I can see this being relevant to CM is possibly in an Operation. Enemy vehicles being captured and put to use during a battle lasting from 40 minutes to a couple of hours sounds so unlikely as to not be worth worrying about. Even if a squad of GIs' found an abandoned Panther which was still operational (so why is it abandoned?), they would not be trained or experienced to use it effectively.

In an Operation, an enemy vehicle might be captured, removed from the battlefield for refitting and returned. But even if this did happen, as I'm sure it did, it would not necessarily be allocated to the company that captured it. Probably unlikely to be allocated to them, I'd reckon.

Refitting damaged vehicles from your own side at least has teh advantage of trained crews being available. How many GIs' without special training could operate a German tank at short notice?

All sounds a bit gamey to me.

My .02c worth!

Ober

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"Them Yankees couldn't hit the broa..."

[Formerly Babra]

The lack of spare parts alone should preclude captured "tanks" from being used, unless they were grouped in their own units as the Germans did. Transport, however, should be recoverable between operations and useable by anybody. What was that American division in '45 that Cornelius Ryan described? They were using everything from kubelwagens to fire engines in an effort to stay mobile.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Formerly Babra:

You will notice I didn't take any stand on the issue

Actually, the Panther was left behind (obviously), but the rest of the vehicles continued with the squadron.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did. I am just reading a history of the 7th Armoured, and during the operations in Belgium/Northern France they seem to have used a lot of German equipment in their supply train (though not in the front-line).

As for Africa, again I don't think it is relevant in a battle, maybe not even in an operation. What will be relevant however is that Matildas and Valentines become available for the Germans, and maybe some German tanks for the Commonwealth. The same in Russia. There are also a few accounts of Shermans being used by the Germans in Northwest Europe, but I am not sure whether it happened on such a scale that it warrants giving the German player the ability to choose them - and let's face it, if people have to choose between some cool-looking Stug and a Sherman with a German Cross on it, I have a suspicion about how 99+% would decide.

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Andreas

[MacAuliff]

One of the most famous events of the use of captured vehicles by the germans in an attack, was during the battle of the bulge.

Otto Skorzeny's brigade used captured US vehicles and roughly disguised german material. On the first day of the offensive teams operated behind lines for work on sabotage and information in false G.I. uniforms. When Skorzeny realized that his plan of taking the bridges over the Meuse as disguised rear retreating US force wouldn't work out, he attacked in surprise the northern shoulder of the bulge (Malmedy). However his attack was brought to a halt due to the overwhelming american artillery.

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Did you know, that the average lifetime of a forward observer in the frontline is...3 minutes.