Small Gripe

[DukesterMM]

May just be my lack of skill, but I hate the fact that most missions are based on whoevers tanks last longest. The odds of regular infantry getting close enough to take one out are slim to nill, and my panzercheck and antitank always get routed or eliminated first. Once all my antitank is gone, they just harass my infantry until their all routed or eliminated, without them being able to fight back.

I realise this might be how it was in the war, but this is still a game.

[russellmz]

use better tactics. i mean to sound blunt, your infantry should be used as a last resort against tanks(believe me, i once had five squads attack an immobilized panzer because i dodn't have anything else to hit it with)

first off, yes infantry will get their butts kicked by tanks IF they are without antitank weapons and no cover availiable.

but, if you make the tanks come to you and ambush them, you can even the odds. use cover and attacks from the side. never move up against the front of them, their armor is thicker and there's that long pointy thing aimed right at you that spits out metal and stuff =).

using your tanks better can help a lot too. again, surprise, cover, and side shots are the best weapons.

"I realise this might be how it was in the war, but this is still a game"

true but real world tactics can help A LOT in this game.

so basically: outflank, use cover, ambush and any underhanded trick you can think of.

have fun

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"They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush

"They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show

[OGSF]

The only thing my tanks fear more than other tanks in this game is infantry. I don't know what you are doing, but treat your troops as you would treat real troops and they'll get the job done. This means not rushing tanks with infantry, keeping your 'schrecks hidden and in ambush, keeping your troops under command and control, staying out of the open when there are tanks around etc. Your 'schreck, bazooka and other AT equipped infantry have the tools to kill tanks. It's the players skill in using them that determine their success.

OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer

[DukesterMM]

yes, but, its not just the tanks vs. my army. They still have the enemy infantry, and hiding long enough without one of them spotting me is pretty dam* hard. plus the ai letting a tank wander out by itself deep in my territory is not very likely.

[DukesterMM]

and i dont send my troops charging the tanks. I have them use whatever cover is available (hills, woods, etc), but a near hit can do as much damage as a hit to a guys psychy and get him routed.

[Tiger]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I realise this might be how it was in the war, but this is still a game<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So your gripe is what. That they should make unrealistic wargames to simulate a more realistic game?

Infantry, used correctly, are a tank's bane.

Tanks that advance into enemy infantry postions that have cover are soon going to be dead tanks. Try using infantry to flush out enemy infantry before your tanks move in.

Infantry should make use of all available cover and the hide/sneak commands not only against tanks, but all enemies. In the end, only you are responsible for the tank protection of the infantry you send into battle.

-john

[DukesterMM]

as for my quote you pointed out, in a way, yes.

take a future war game for example. There are nukes which could easily take out a whole base and all the enemies around it, why not just use have an option for them? I'll tell you why. Pushing a button to just win a game isn't their idea of a fun game.

The only difference in some of the missions in this cm is that there is luck between whos antitank die first. then they just put them out of range of the infantry and fire away.

[Tiger]

It has more to do with tactics and knowledge of how the game is played than luck in my opinion. Remember that both players have to put their AT units at risk to use them effectively. It's a double-edged sword.

-john

[DukesterMM]

yes, but, my basic gripe is that the game relies too much on the tanks. its a rush to get the other guys at and t's before they get yours.

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

Dukester,

I think of battle in Combat Mission to be similar to a hockey game, in some respects.

It appears to be luck, when a shot goes in on a goalie. The puck is moving so fast that you can barely see it, gets deflected off of a skate, and goes in.

But after the game, when you look at the stats, you will often see trends that had developed. How many shots one side took on the other team, time of possession, etc.

My point is that yes, there is alot of chance involved in Combat Mission, just like real life, but players who tend to win alot defy the odds of just getting lucky all the time. There is no way someone can go 10-0 on luck. These players have found the real world tactics that minimize your risk. They make decisions in the game that minimize the bad luck, and take as much advantage as possible of the good luck.

Armor battles can seem alot like pure luck, but take a closer look at what happens out there. If your Panther gets hit by a flank shot and knocked out, that wasn't luck. That was a sneaky bastard opponent that looked at the situation and found the best way to kill your Panther.

Again, the highly successful players are the ones who take advantage of the opportunities that arise during the battle. But every once in a while, you will fall victim to a bad string of circumstances that genius tactics just can't overcome. Thats real life, that really happened.

Do you get what I am trying to say?

[Tiger]

I dunno. It sounds like you're playing the gold demo and are trying real hard to find faults with the game that just are not there. The full version is not a tank-only game, and infantry is vicious against tanks when used properly. I can not count the number of times I've had tanks knocked out by hidden infantry I didn't see until too late. Also remember that the gold demo has a limited number of maps (2?) and limited weather conditions (1?). Most of my games I play are around 1500 points. With this much I can usually get 3-4 tanks. Usually 1-2 decent tanks and 1-2 infantry support type afvs from the tank selection lists. This is hardly a tank-fest game.

-john

[This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 10-08-2000).]

[DukesterMM]

its in the gold demo, a lot in the chance encounter mission. whichever side has their tanks + at left last wins.

[DukesterMM]

as for tankfest, a tank can make a lot of your units crazy and kill many without tanky barely any damage from the infantry. with nothing to kill them, ur infantry is dead meat.

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

I have killed plenty of tanks in my time with infantry, but you can't just DECIDE you are going to do it. You have to wait for them to come in TOO close.

Also, if you are losing tank duels where you drive up to find them, stop driving up to find them. Let them come to you, and you will often get the first shot off. The split second advantage you get from seeing the enemy tanks first is often the difference between life and death.

If you just don't like tanks dominating the battles, buy the full version. You will find PLENTY of scenarios where tanks are more of a liability than an asset.

[Guest Big Time Software]

DukesterMM,

As others have tried to point out... tactics are key. I don't mind going up against enemy tanks without friendly tanks. If I am the better player I can win quite easily.

Realism is what we tried to achieve, and that is why things work the way they do. According to long time wargamers, veterans (including at least one WWII vet we know of), and military historians all appear to agree that Combat Mission is the most realistic wargame out there. More importantly, that it models the relationship between infantry and armor very, very realistically.

If you think it is all about who's tank shoots up the other guy's first, you probably need to brush up on real world tactics. CM might be a game, but it is bound by realism to its very core. In real war if you don't know your tactics, and the other side does, you will lose. Same in CM

Steve

[DukesterMM]

but, there are many variables. sometimes you have to move tanks to get a view. as i said before, the ai normaly doesn't let a tank travel out by itself deep into enemy territory. when a tank spots infantry, it fires at it. it doesn't just attack tanks, it just prefers them and at. once all the tanks and at are gone, they harass the infantry.

[OGSF]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DukesterMM:

its in the gold demo, a lot in the chance encounter mission. whichever side has their tanks + at left last wins.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Remember that the demo you are playing is just that, a demo. It shows *some* of the units, and how they operate, the terrain and so on. Your units are predetermined and there are only so many ways to play the game out.

You need to buy the full game. If you are even remotely interested in WWII tactical wargaming, you will not be disappointed. Tanks are a great asset, but when you start to play the range of scenarios and Quick Battle possibilities you will find that there is a balance to the game which does not rely on tanks and AT asssets to win. They are invariably helpful, but not essential.

Bottom line, the demo is a taste, but definitely not the whole meal.

OGSF

[DukesterMM]

"According to long time wargamers, veterans (including at least one WWII vet we know of), and military historians"

but, that is very biased gameplay wise. Take the average joe who only knows about ww2 what hes learned in history class. He doesn't know that the best way to take out a tank is to flank it. He might not even know what a flank is! The people who say this is the most realistic do know these things. Think about that also.

as for demo. gold demo is what is in the regular game. says so on the site, and until the writin on it is changed it stands the same.

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

OK,

I think you are looking at this wrong. CM was designed by people who want to simulate real tactical level combat. That is the primary goal.

If you don't know yet know how to play out a tactical combat simulation, you are in luck! THIS GAME is the best to tool to learn that.

I have heard this said more times than I can count..

"Man, I just got my butt kicked in my last game, and I learned alot from it."

Keep playing, learn the tricks of the trade, instead of asking the game to conform to your preconceied notions. And in the end, you will get alot more satisfaction out of knowing you won with ideas and strategies that would REALLY WORK, as opposed to just winning your average pc game.

Join us...the hamstertruppen is waiting for you......

[russellmz]

you'll probably just need a little more practice.

are you too aggressive, wht your tanks out in front, charging in guns ablazin'?(i love doing that when all the tanks are blown away, and no panzerfausts left...) or too non commital? are your tanks weaker, taken out by the better germ tanks or by sneaky infantry?(my shermans always get toasted most often by panzerfausts, u b-stards!)

and the game is biased to wargamers! they buy the wargames =).

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"They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush

"They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show

[Supertanker]

The AI is not all that bright on the attack (insufficient recon, sometimes outruns its infantry, etc.), so its tanks will have a hard time against you infantry. Playing defense with infantry against the AI's tanks is one of my favorite quick battles.

Last night I had five platoons of Brit regulars (no engineers), 6 PIATs, one Vickers MG, eight 2" mortars, a 3" mortar, one each 3" and 4.2" mortar observers, and 3 20mm Daimlers defending a village against the AI's 7 MkIVs, a Panther, 3 halftracks two HMG42, two Panzershrecks, and two platoons of infantry. I killed or captured the entire German force - not even any crews escaped. I lost about a platoon of infantry, one Daimler, and two PIAT teams (37 total casualties).

A few bits of tactical advice for these fights. Pick positions that are not exposed to long-range fire, so you make them come to you. Don't leave your AT teams isolated or exposed so they aren't the only thing to shoot at, so they aren't immediately suppressed, and can continue to fire after they reveal themselves. Use ambush points to force your men to wait until the enemy is within 100m (or closer if you have the nerve) - my opening ambush bagged the Panther and two MkIVs. Good hunting.

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We eat like kings, drink like czars, and game like fat drunken king-czars. - CaSCa

[DukesterMM]

maybe there should be a tutorial that explains different stratagies to the regs. u cant push a newbie into a game and expect him to pick everything up right away, but u cant expect him to enjoy a game if there is an obvious unfairness in some missions.

[Simon Fox]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>as for demo. gold demo is what is in the regular game. says so on the site, and until the writin on it is changed it stands the same.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes you are correct the demo does give you a reasonable look at the game. Since you seem unwilling or unable to accept the advice offered to you then probably CMBO is not the game for you.

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"Fatso-the battlers' prince"

[DukesterMM]

im not rejecting the advice, just hte way you state it.

this started out as a debate on tanks, but eventually changed to tanctics.

you represent the game as a tactical game that envolves millitary tactics as in real life. Great idea. But, you are expecting everyone to know them. Many people dont know the tactics, and wont be able to do nearly as well as you do. When u suggest that we wake up and use them, when we dont know them, it just makes us more frustrated.

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

There are some very good tutorials in the final version of the game.

Don't get discouraged, it is a balanced game at its core.

Try the scenario you just played again, but give yourself some extra manpower. +100% or something. As soon as you taste victory, you will hunger for more. The hunger demands more victory.

Also, read the tactics tips on this forum and the many CM websites. It's exhilarating once you have a handle on why things are happening in the game..