Mortar fire and another thing.

[pitz]

Whole point about Mortar fire is that is NOT line of sight - maybe I missed something though I did do a search.

Other thing is, where can I get a list of commands that i can actually print out in AScii. I rather need it to program all my devices.

Thank you,

pitz

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pitz:

Whole point about Mortar fire is that is NOT line of sight - maybe I missed something though I did do a search.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What exactly do you mean? If you want to do out of LOS firing, you can do that. There is a long article explaining it very well on CMHQ or the CMHQ annex.

combathq.thegamers.net/

Basically you need a spotting HQ unit to do this. Or a TRP.

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Andreas

[Guest Michael emrys]

Has anyone tried the Mortar Carrier? It's kind of nice. It's lightly armored, motorized, has an 81 mm mortar, and carries lots of ammo. Only thing, it can only be used direct fire. Since it's a vehicle, there is no way to put it in command. So it can't fire indirectly. Does anyone know if this is historical? Fionn, you know? I doubt it myself but don't have any documentation on the matter.

Michael

[pitz]

Thanks. i get the idea but darned if I can find the article.

pitz

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pitz:

Thanks. i get the idea but darned if I can find the article.

pitz<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try a search using Madmatt and FO or something. He had a thread a couple of weeks back where he announced the article. Anybody else know where? I am on my modem, slightly drunk and off to a pig roast, so I can't do it now.

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Andreas

[Bullethead]

Michael Emrys said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Has anyone tried the Mortar Carrier? It's kind of nice. It's lightly armored, motorized, has an 81 mm mortar, and carries lots of ammo. Only thing, it can only be used direct fire. Since it's a vehicle, there is no way to put it in command. So it can't fire indirectly. Does anyone know if this is historical?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I've noticed this as well and it does seem strange to me. I mean, you'd think a vehicle would be easier to have in command for fire adjusting because of its radios and room for map boards and such.

Maybe a possible solution would be to have the mortar team for mortar vehicles be a separate infantry-type unit. Then officers could command it like they can other passengers.

This would also kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Some vehicular mortars were dismountable, so having the mortar as a separate unit would allow this. Just give it a "limber/unlimber time" like for towed guns. If the mortar couldn't come out in real life, then make this time longer than the max scenario length. OTOH, unlike towed guns, these mortars, of course, would have to be able to fire while "limbered," where they would also have access to more ammo than if they got out of the vehicle.

Oh well, maybe something for CM2

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-Bullethead

It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

[Guest Michael emrys]

"Maybe a possible solution would be to have the mortar team for mortar vehicles be a separate infantry-type unit. Then officers could command it like they can other passengers."

Even better would be to be able to put vehicles in comand. Don't know why this wasn't done in the first place. I suppose BTS had a reason, but thus far it has escaped me.

Alternatively, allow all vehicular indirect fire units to fire from any point on the map to any other point within the LOS of an HQ or an FO (and of course within their own range).

I think in real life, a battery of mortar carriers had a dedicated spotter in his own vehicle, but he would likely leave it to spot on foot. If that is the case, it would be nice to model that.

Michael

[Schugger]

pitz

After several unsuccessful attempts to post an valid URL, use Germanboy's URL than click on the annex section and finally the GoldenBB section. There is an article which should answer your questions regarding indirekt onboard artillery.

[This message has been edited by Schugger (edited 07-02-2000).]

[Harold Jones]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pitz:

...Other thing is, where can I get a list of commands that i can actually print out in AScii. I rather need it to program all my devices.

Thank you,

pitz<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Appendix A of the manual has a complete list of the commands.

[pitz]

Thanks for the directions. As for Appendix A, that requires the full version. I have the demo which is somewhat obscure.

pitz

[Guest Madmatt]

Goto the the Golden BB's section of the CMHQ-Annex (link is below) Thats where the complete Artillery/Mortar Procedures Article is posted...

Madmatt

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If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

CMHQ-Annex, The Alternative side of Combat Mission

Combat Mission HQ

CMHQ-Annex

Proud members of the Combat Mission WebRing

[pitz]

Thanks, I found it but am now going to appear a complete ignoramus!

Basically, he talks of TRP's. In the demo there are a couple of spotters for off board arty. He says that you can program targets in the set up phase. I can't! Are TRP's something that don't exist in the demo?

Also in the action phase, using these spotters to target things seems to produce no response at all.

I am obviously seriously missing something here. Simplistic advice on this would be a bonus.

Thanks,

pitz

[Schugger]

No problem pitz

OK, you can target with your FOs any map area, it doesen't matter if the area is in LOS of your FO or not. However, targeting an area out of LOS from your FO results usually in a very unprecise barrage.

The biggest part in the article is reffering to indirekt "onboard" artillery which is, in the Gold Demo, mortars and their teams represented on the map.

OK?

Schugger

[snagdad]

hey pitz,

primer on FO's; they basically control off-board artillery (you cannot see or control the artillery except through the FO team on your map). they will fire onto any portion of the map but accuracy and tightness of the barrage is better if LOS to target exists for the FO. Again, LOS is not necessary for the FO to place a barrage, but a barrage to an out of LOS target will not be as accurate or "tight" (size of area shots will fall into gets bigger). After having the FO target an area (he can't target specific units or vehicles, only an area) you should see an orange line from the FO to the designated target area when the FO is selected. Usually it will take about 2 minutes (2 game turns) from targeting until the artillery barrage begins; this might be why you don't see an effect, you are not waiting long enough. When the FO is highlighted, you should see time remaining until barrage start in the FO info box at the bottom. BTW, changing the target will restart the two minute wait. In the full game you can "walk" the barrage a short distance from the initial target point without too much of a time delay (seconds instead of 2 minutes). At this stage of your career I wouldn't worry about TRP's, wait for the full game and the manual. Is this the sort of info that helps you at this point ? If so respond and I or someone else can talk about mortar fire control. BTW, anyone else, have I missed anything of importance here ??

[pitz]

Thanks Snagdad. Does FO = spotter?

I was impatient for action I think. Assuming FO = spotter can you give serial orders eg

target this.

crawl out of it

or does he have to stand there like a lemon for 60 seconds?

pitz

[Schugger]

Originally posted by pitz:

Thanks Snagdad. Does FO = spotter?

I was impatient for action I think. Assuming FO = spotter can you give serial orders eg

target this.

crawl out of it

Yes, you can give several orders for a unit or a combination of orders. For example: Sneak through the woods, than run over the wheatfield into the scattered trees, crawl to the opposite edge of the tile and then succumb to the german HMG sitting in ambush there.

You can also plot an Hide order after movement.

[BorderBill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by snagdad.

but a barrage to an out of LOS target will not be as accurate or "tight" (size of area shots will fall into gets bigger<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Snagdad, I don't understand why the barrage wouldn't be as "tight" as an observed barrage. Yes, the accuracy of where the barrage lands would be effected, but the battery sheaf (I think that's the proper term) shouldn't differ much from an observed barrage. The guns are firing using the same firing data and the shells from a battery should still fall in a consistent pattern even if the shells don't land on target. The only thing I can figure is that the battery might be firing an intentional loose sheaf in order to make up for the less exact target location in hopes of having a few rounds on target. Maybe any Redlegs out there could answer this: when firing on unobserved targets does the battery fire an open sheaf versus a tighter sheaf for observed targets? I know that there are different sheafs used depending on whether your firing an area suppression fire mission versus a destructive fire mission. I would be most interested in any answers from experienced cannoncockers out there as my Infantry school knowledge of controlling indirect is a decade old. Also, this may have been implemented into the game to factor in variables of which I am not aware.

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...But the voice of a schoolboy rallies the ranks, 'Play up! Play up! and play the game!' Vitai Lampada--Sir Henry Newboldt

Play the game! Motto of 1st Bn, 50th Infantry, US Army.

[This message has been edited by BorderBill (edited 07-02-2000).]

[This message has been edited by BorderBill (edited 07-02-2000).]

[Guest Mirage2k]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Snagdad, I don't understand why the barrage wouldn't be as "tight" as an observed barrage. Yes, the accuracy of where the barrage lands would be effected, but the battery sheaf (I think that's the proper term) should differ much from an observed barrage. The guns are firing using the same firing data and the shells from a battery should still fall in a consistent pattern even if the shells don't land on target.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe when firing on an out-of-LOS target, the battery intentionally spreads out the pattern of its shells, since it's not quite sure exactly where the target is.

-Andrew

[snagdad]

yes, FO (forward observer) equals spotter. as far as serial orders, in CM you can chain together "move" and "fast" and "sneak" etc for a particular unit, but sticking to the FO you need to move him to a spot where he has good LOS but is under cover (for an optimum barrage, again, LOS is not required for a barrage); in the orders phase pick a hill or somewhere that has good LOS and select the FO and then the move command. Extend the move line to where you have just exited some trees into open ground and then back it up to the edge of the trees. Your spotter will retain his LOS but will benefit from the coverage of the trees. In fact this is an almost essential tactic whatever the unit; you are always trying to find locations for your troops/vehicles where they have LOS and can cause some damage without being too exposed. In VoT in the demo a good spot is the hill on the near edge of the map (where the allies start out) about 3/4 of the way over to the left of the map. If your spotter has targeted something but is forced to hide or move or is routed or killed, the targeting order is cancelled; he has to be in good shape and not moving during the targeting period up to the barrage and during the barrage.

this game is something else, highly recommend the full version; slow down a bit with the game, it is not unusual for me to spend 20 to 30 minutes deciding on orders for that one minute combat phase. you'll get jaded on the demo after many battles but it is good to learn; then you get the full version with 45+ battles and all those vehicles and snow and it just pulls you in like nothing else. have fun !

[snagdad]

to all, as far as the tightness of the barrage when LOS exists, historically (and this shows up in the game) the battery would fire a few targeting rounds initially and the spotter would report and adjust (forward 100 yards, left 50 yards, etc.) before the main barrage using all guns. Also, it was not unusual for one or more guns to have erred in coordinates so their shots would be significantly off target, i.e. 9 guns in the battery would be on or close to target and one gun significantly long or (worse) short. The spotter would call for sequential firing to identify and correct the off gun(s). None of this is possible without LOS, hence the "looser" pattern when no LOS. Amazingly well modeled in the game, as is most of the content.

[pitz]

Thanks Snag, extremely explicit. Once more unto the breach (go I).

pitz

[Guest Michael emrys]

Just to be pedantic, artillery batteries usually contained 4-6 guns/howitzers and battalions 12-18 (although the British 25 pounders had 24). Heavy and super-heavy artillery was a different matter entirely though.

Michael