guachi Posted January 23, 2000 Share Posted January 23, 2000 Doug, you're pushing hard to join me in my baking battalion, aren't you? There's always room for more!! Knowing reload speed, at least in general, will be important for commanders to know in an armor duel. That and turret rotation speed. I never realized the rotation speed of a Hellcat was that fast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 23, 2000 Share Posted January 23, 2000 Doug, Some people and I had a MAJOR discussion about optics about 2 months ago.. It contains everything you could want to know, of relevance, about optics in WW2 German and US tanks including the whole mils vs stereoscopics argument which crops up everytime optics are discussed . Do a search for stereoscopic or mil or optics and you should find it. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dano6 Posted January 23, 2000 Author Share Posted January 23, 2000 Steve thank you for your reply to the question I posed. I still have a problem with the Stug having a higher ROF. This has been shown by tests done by other people posting to this series. What really surprised me was that the ROF for the hellcat was the same as the Sherman (12sec/shot). Which of course is still slower than the Stug(10-11 sec/shot). I would think that the Hellcat would have a very high ROF when not under fire from infantry weapons(unbuttoned). This seems to be the exact reason why the US Army went for the open turret design. Still there seems to be some sort of discrepancy from what is shown to what is reality. One last question, why if the Stug is cramped does it have a 2-3 sec reload advantage on the Sherman? Shouldn't they at least be equal? And for the Hellcat, it should have a higher ROF than the Stug and for that matter the Sherman? Anyways Steve and Charles thank you for your imput. dano6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted January 23, 2000 Share Posted January 23, 2000 Fionn, I read that thread on optics. Problem was, after people started talking about "1 mil at 1000m fits in Slot B, then connect the biphysiological extrapolators to the green fittings with 6 meters of woven dental floss (not included)" it was all Greek to me. However BTS decides on this is cool by me. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 23, 2000 Share Posted January 23, 2000 Dano6, I think BTS' point was that you really can't draw conclusions from the test you did as there are so many confounding factors which would need to be taken into account by running the tests under multiple conditions (requiring an editor). Also one point I'd make.. Re-sighting the gun is a major equaliser, takes a fair bit of time for both tanks and by adding an equal amount of time to both loading procedures (which you didn't seem to account for) is just another one of those factors which "confounds" when looked at in detail. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeydz Posted January 23, 2000 Share Posted January 23, 2000 Using CE, I ran a test of the rate of fire between the 3 Stugs, the 2 Veteran Shermans, and the 3 Regular Shermans. All vehicles used HE rounds fired using the Area Target mode, range of approx 250m. I counted each shot until each vehicle ran out of HE ammo. (Yes, I was getting a little bored toward the end of tracking all 72 HE rounds that Sherman #3 had... ugh) Here are my results*. US Veteran Sherman #1 Total Shots: 55 Average Time Between Shots: 9.72 sec US Veteran Sherman #2 Total Shots: 65 ATBS: 9.76 US Regular Sherman #1 Total Shots: 72 (geez that took awhile) ATBS: 11.91 US Regular Sherman #2 Total Shots: 61 ATBS: 11.63 US Regular Sherman #3 Total Shots: 46 ATBS: 12.45 (needs to go back to the range and practice) German Regular Stug III #1 Total Shots: 27 ATBS: 11.37 German Regular Stug III #2 Total Shots: 21 ATBS: 11.54 German Regular Stug III #3 Total Shots: 26 ATBS: 11.49 Just using this limited data, I'm guessing that the Stug might have a slight advantage, but I doubt on average they have a 2-3 second consistent advantage over the Sherman. If you throw out the 3rd Sherman, it's almost a dead heat between the two. I included the Veteran Shermans to show what type of effect the increased experience seems to have. *Note, I've never taken statistics or other such classes, so perhaps my methods are flawed, so use these numbers in the debate as you wish. Just have mercy on me when you chastise my methods since it took me 3 hours to log and figure the times for 373 shots fired by 8 vehicles. MikeyD [This message has been edited by Mikeydz (edited 01-23-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted January 23, 2000 Share Posted January 23, 2000 There's a person who takes his wargaming VERY seriously! DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dano6 Posted January 23, 2000 Author Share Posted January 23, 2000 Damn, that shows alot of patience. It looks from your trials that the ROF is about equal between the Stug and Sherman. Of course experience of the crew should make a big difference. Fionn, I hear what you are saying and understand that there are alot of different factors involved. I still think that a Sherman would have a higher ROF than a Stug, but they should be close. Of couse this is just my opinion, and .75 secs difference even though I feel they should at least be equal is not as much as I at first believed the difference to be. I am grateful for all the players who ran tests and saved me from taking time away from multiple PBEM games. Anyway I finally found another thing that I had a small disagreement over and thought I would bring it up for discussion. dano6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 24, 2000 Share Posted January 24, 2000 No worries at all Dano6... One of the things I did when I first got CM was question lots of stuff too. it's all part of learning/testing the game. Personally I think Shermans DO fire faster than StuGs in-game once you put them in REAL battlefield conditions due to the necessities for hull rotation in the StuG and its speed versus the speed of turret rotation on the Sherman... I consistently see the Sherman get off 3 shots in the time it takes the StuG to get off 2 in real combat conditions... Tests are great but their applicability to the field of battle varies and often-times they give you the wrong info.. EVEN if a StuG did fire 1 second faster than a Sherman consistently the Sherman would STILL usually get the first shot off and get its 3rd shot off before the StuG due to battle conditions. I hate the poor target acquisition and slow aim of my StuGs in-game. It makes them intensely vulnerable. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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