72nd Anniversary of D-Day

[Sublime]

On 6/7/2016 at 7:07 AM, John Kettler said:

mech.gato,

Well said, however depressing your spot on observations. Compared to what Europeans know of history, the arts, philosophy, logic and more, not to mention languages, we here in the US are whatever is worse than dazzlingly ignorant. I find that a national shame, as I do our ranking in a whole series of areas academic and not. We really need to , as the British so unflinchingly put it, get the finger out and sort ourselves out--while there's still a country to fix!

I'd not encountered that "two-way rifle range" expression before, and I'd be most interested to see you discuss, to whatever extent you feel comfortable, your ambush by Iraqi ATGs. The CMBS Forum would seem a good place to do this, since T-12s are still in use in Ukraine, though not, to my knowledge, as ATGs. I concur that brierf combat exposure, however intense and deadly, isn't at all the same as fighting day after day, sometimes for months on end, with very little down time and no real leave.

Thank goodness we have an all-volunteer force, for I fear that the number of combat suitable draftees would be vanishingly small compared to WW II. Here are the WW II Category F numbers (Table 5), and as a percentage of the intake, they're awful. I have absolute confidence the coddled youth of today, largely unaccustomed to being told what to do, when to do it and how; who generally have known little or no hard physical work, let alone living rough, as exemplified by glamping, and aren't in good shape, would have a considerably higher Category F percentage. Double that of WW II wouldn't surprise me. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it can't be good that much of the populace, which very much includes those of draft age, are on one or more psych meds, never mind doing recreational drugs! I recently learned of a town of 8000 in Oregon in which virtually every resident was on Prozac.

Regards,

John Kettler

 

Though you.re talking about the draft I feel my generation has more than proved itself on the battlefield and kept the honor of American soldiers intact.  (No thanks to me) My generation has fought the longest war in US history, invaded and took over Iraq and held it until ordered pulled out.

Also dont just look at the death count. The numbers are amazingly deceptive. In Vietnam, 50 years ago, you had like a 97% chance of survival if you made it to the dust off helo. I can only imagine thats improved. So whilst the news was focussed on US body count which of course seemed 'low' (not if youre one of them) that doesnt tell you about the endless number of amputees, etc.

No there are idiots and ignorant people everywhere.  A lot of Americans are very well informed on history a lot are not.

But comparing generations like this one and WW2?  I guess itll sound like sacrilidge but I think if you switched in any US generation they would have rose to the challenge.

P.S. JK its a lot easier for the average guy to live lean and mean when your countrys been in a decade long Great Depression.  At the time of WW2 alot of the US public was worried the kids could do it. The US public didnt have a high opinion of its youth then. They rose to the occassion.

Reading a college book on the NLF based on RAND Corp studies about the NLF/VC from interrogations the elders in Vietnam didnt like their generation. They likened them to wild cowboys and had all sorts of complaints.  However a lot of them made very very dangerous opponents.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Sublime

[arjuna_r]

Sublime doesn't want to say anything sacrilegious but I have no such qualms  Engage bad man mode in 3..2..1...

The US' 'Greatest generation' were pacifist to a fault and had to be cajoled, drafted and Pearl Harboured into fighting. Discuss, lol.

I jest but I dunno quite what the younger generation is being accused of. Not being capable of aggressive action? Assorted middle eastern cities still regularly resemble the surface of the moon, the violence on par with the best of them. Yes a lot of it is done by proxies and tech, storming the beaches is soo 6th of June 1944.

Being ignorant? As far as I know there isn't a universal criteria for what a kid should know... Also, quite a claim to make when they have the internet at their fingertips. 

I don't think it's a stretch to say that D-Day is quite an arbitrary day for even American kids to mark. Assuming that it's a great example of sacrifice for the greater good is to be expected on this forum, obviously, but I suspect a whole bunch of kids 'remembering' this day might not quite achieve the aims of respect and education we're aiming for  

My preferred role on D-Day: Luftwaffe pilot!

 

Edited June 9, 2016 by arjuna_r
Slightly more sense added.

[Sublime]

Yes pearl harbored cajoled etc into war. Id say thats to their credit instead of being eager to set the world aflame and kill just because they could or nationalism like a lot of people in other nations.

Just like imo without 911 you dont see the US invading Afghan or Iraq. Again i think this is to our credit that every US major war has had to have sometype of overt outrage to galvanize the US into action. Vietnam is the exception but noone knew the second Gulf of Tonkin attack never happened and what the US was doing over there back home.

And you canmot forget that there was conscription until mid to late Vietnam.

 

Arjuna I mentioned this because JKs statements about todays youth. Millers Masters of the Air points to an Army study done mid 1941 that said thw average American boy only cared about women cars and booze.  They thought they were soft. And they also noted more than half couldnt find CHINA on a map.

Theres malingerers cowards nayer do wells and all sorts in every generation. But being born in 85 and thus part of a generation that fought 2 very nasty wars so far one the longest running US war ever I take offense to JKs sweeping assertions about todays military age youth.

 

Btw i really find the anti depressant comment funny coming from a guy who asserts there was a German nuclear VBIED at Kursk (amongst many other absolutely bat sh*t crazy beliefs.)

[A Canadian Cat]

3 hours ago, arjuna_r said:

I jest but I dunno quite what the younger generation is being accused of.

Same thing every younger generation has been accused of (and this current younger generation are sure to accuse the next one of) being lazy, uncaring, rude and ignorant.  It is the same as it has always been. 

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/63219-the-children-now-love-luxury-they-have-bad-manners-contempt

http://mentalfloss.com/article/52209/15-historical-complaints-about-young-people-ruining-everything

[arjuna_r]

2 hours ago, Sublime said:

But being born in 85 and thus part of a generation that fought 2 very nasty wars so far one the longest running US war ever I take offense to JKs sweeping assertions about todays military age youth.

We were born in the same year. I think 'Generation Kill' ('Soundtrack to War' is also interesting) described quite well how modern urban American kids can be effective warriors. Arguably the most effective in history if taken in full context. About the galvanising to go to war thing, I only meant that as noble an effort as Overlord was and is, it's safe to assume that most of its participants were reluctant at best.

 

28 minutes ago, IanL said:

Same thing every younger generation has been accused of (and this current younger generation are sure to accuse the next one of) being lazy, uncaring, rude and ignorant.  It is the same as it has always been. 

Lawn trespassing is particularly prevalent in America I've been told.

 

[arjuna_r]

'Saving Private Ryan' came out towards the end of high school, that led to Band of Brothers, the first CoD and Medal of Honor games... Brothers in Arms (that game was actually good). CoH, MoW. Just off the top of my head and all mainstream as you can get.

Now we have WoT and War Thunder etc. I don't think we are in any danger of forgetting about D-Day..well.. just the day it happened, and how many Stalin tanks were destroyed by the Maus prototype.

Edited June 9, 2016 by arjuna_r

[A Canadian Cat]

23 minutes ago, arjuna_r said:

Lawn trespassing is particularly prevalent in America I've been told.

Yeah, I left that off because that's a real problem.  I remember as a kid having a neighbour that would absolutely "flip his s**t" (as my teenage daughter likes to say) if we set foot on his lawn.  Now I'm the one saying "Get off my lawn".

[Michael Emrys]

8 hours ago, Sublime said:

Id say thats to their credit instead of being eager to set the world aflame and kill just because they could or nationalism like a lot of people in other nations.

While I agree with the first part of your statement, I think your ending could be misinterpreted. Fact is, the UK and especially France were exceedingly war  weary and frankly unenthusiastic about going to war again. Even most Italians, despite Mussolini's posturings, were reluctant to engage in actual shooting. There were even a fair number of Germans who were extremely uneasy about their country going to war, although discretion compelled them to keep quiet about it.

Michael

Edited June 9, 2016 by Michael Emrys

[Sublime]

Well the Germans certainly were more vocally militaristic. And they certainly seemed less reluctant when they started winning.  Of course i know about all the misgivings in the Wehrmacht and the anti war culture that had come from WW1 and whatnot. Still seems lots of the little people amongst the Germans all to gleefully went full paramilitary mode with a nice heaping side of anti semitism and violence thrown in for sh$ts and giggles. The Japanese are a good example of my point. As are the Russians but thats debatable as more of a which state was playing nice and which was basically an evil state that like the famous cartoon fell through the ceiling into bed with the Allies.

Arjuna I think put it best. However noble or not noble a war undertaking is Im sure most of the young kids once you start taking losses arent exactly thrilled to be there or hear they have to attack. Whatever the side. I was merely pointing out that maybe what some see as weakness or softness in American youth is a good thing.

Christ I mean if people think America pokes its nose into everything now and is too aggressivr do you have any idea what the world.would look like in 20 years if we Nazified our youth, made them into Trump Rangers? ( almost forced joining into youth orgs that are basically military training, brainwashing,informant culture)

Edited June 10, 2016 by Sublime