72nd Anniversary of D-Day

[John Kettler]

You would've thought the anniversary, from whatever year (72nd this time), of the June 6, 1944 D-Day landings in Normandy would've at least had a post here--on the CMBN Forum--but no! Let me correct that. I had no ancestor there on D-Day, but one in Patton's Navy detachment Boat Two landed there administratively on D+1 and had the grisly task of helping clean up the scene of so much butchery on the water side of things. He was a MoMM2 (Motorman's Mate, 2nd Class) on an LCM or "M" boat.

Many of you will be familiar with the above, but I rather doubt you know this one. The description of the video says (Fair Use)

The 'New York World Telegram' called it "the greatest recording yet to come out of the war." This was the amazing recording made by George Hicks, London Bureau Chief for the Blue Network (soon to become ABC) of the beginning of the D-Day Normandy Invasion.

Added to the Library of Congress Audio Archive.

Regards,

John Kettler

[TheForwardObserver]

You beat me to it @John Kettler.  In honor of D-Day I was going to pose the question; If you had to choose, would you have dropped in with the Airborne or hit the beach, and why?

[John Kettler]

TheForwardObserver,

Airborne all the way! From a military standpoint, I'd rather drop at night somewhere behind the primary defenses, into the enemy's tactical rear area, with my location at least for a time unknown (until he starts running into our previously unsuspected ambushes and road blocks), than attack in broad daylight into the teeth of carefully prepared defenses. Mind, those poor devils attacking into the teeth of enemy defenses had best get here soon, since I'm not equipped for a slugging match!  There's likely another component to my answer, and that lies in the huge gap, even as a draftable young man, between my temperament and  desires and my physical abilities. I am very much a maverick, a leader, a risk taker, a thinker and task focused, but I never had the strength, balance, coordination and stamina to do anything like Airborne and indeed, given certain health issues only recently diagnosed, am not sure I could've gotten through Basic Training. The Vietnam War ended before I could attempt to test the last proposition.

I believe, though, that by choosing "Airborne" for my answer, I'm also expressing my notion of how I'd wish to be, if I could. Also, by nature, I'm not a corporate critter and prefer to work in a small group, alone if necessary. Airborne is where you find such people. Did I mention I have a rather devious mind of the sort not generally envisioned by the writers of the Army Regulations, as it were? I also happen to be tenacious and stubborn under pressure, excellent qualities when defending while outnumbered. Further, I once nearly had my head blown off while plinking targets in a stream. I had no idea Dad was positioned behind me on the bank, but as I unexpectedly stood up to reload, that happened to be the instant he fired. The bullet's shock wave parted my hair, but no incontinence resulted. I was rattled, but Dad was white as the proverbial sheet and so shaken I fully expected him to collapse in a heap. While this is certainly not the same thing as being deliberately fired upon, I do believe it gives some sense of me under an incredibly stressful situation.

One of these days I'm going to figure out how to reply briefly. Would you believe, though, that in school I frequently got dinged for writing too little? If so, you may be seeing the MATWO (Mother of All Terse Writing Overcompensations)!

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited June 6, 2016 by John Kettler

[TheForwardObserver]

I'd take my chances behind enemy lines as well.  Well-- that or toss my boat driver overboard and set a course for anywhere but Omaha.

John you sound like what the fancy folks might call a disruptive thinker.  Unless your eye for details and analysis was a recent development I suspect you know you could have made a fine intelligence man-- which means you probably would have hated the army.

Good intelligence people are story tellers and obsessive detaileers, obstinate and two faced.  Professing the Laws of Newton by day, and quietly researching the philosopher's stone under the cover of night.  

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, TheForwardObserver said:

<Snip>   In honor of D-Day I was going to pose the question; If you had to choose, would you have dropped in with the Airborne or hit the beach, and why?

AIRBORNE!!!  ALL THE WAY!!!  

In the 1980s I was an intel analyst (See my MOS / Forum Handle) in the 313 MI Bn, 82nd Airborne Division and worked in the G2 shop.  So, of course, I would go with my unit.  I also had an opportunity to jump C-47s in Honduras.  I think those C-47s were the same type of platform used in the D-Day invasion.  Very cool stuff back in the day.    

[TheForwardObserver]

@MOS:96B2P I noticed you were an intel type back at the end of January when you posted some test data to a thread I had going.  Sure it was the handle that gave you away, but you could strip from it the details and your trained analyses with labeled graphics, coherent flow and complete answers would still betray you.  

 

[kevinkin]

For the extra pay, I'm with the 82nd. Although I would not want to have been in a glider. Did any flying coffin return the states and "perform" in post war airshows?

Kevin

[TheForwardObserver]

"i have a cunning plan..."

"we'll use planes with engines, to pull planes without engines, and crash land the ones without engines into the enemy packed with soldiers who'll spring out like candy from a piñata.."

"brilliant baldrick!"

[Michael Emrys]

6 hours ago, John Kettler said:

a MoMM2 (Motorman's Mate

Slight correction required here perhaps, John. Unless I am mistaken (always a possibility), that should be Motor Machinist Mate 2nd. Class.

Michael

[John Kettler]

TheForwardObserver,

Back before hyper stress and various other disasters severely disrupted memory and focus, I used to be a terror. Was a walking Threat Encyclopedia with a voracious appetite for new material and possessed of the rare ability not just to grok but put an ever growing array of weapons and sensors into an big picture context understandable, for example, by people who knew everything about a Roland SAM system's radar, but wouldn't have recognized the complete weapon system if it drove through their office wall. You could say I was a Threat SME who fed intel as needed to a broad spectrum of projects in and outside of my department. At Hughes Missile Systems Group, that extended all the way to the CTO, Dr. hans Mauer, a Project Paperclip scientist! Unless math scores were an issue, there is zero doubt that upon entering the Army and taking the various test batteries I would've been considered prime intel analyst material, no matter what I may've wanted to do.

I never heard the term "disruptive thinker" before, but I can tell you I was causing security flaps by my knowledge base and how I used it before I ever got into military aerospace when writing white papers for Dad, a EE at Hughes, then working on the laser equivalent of an ESM receiver for laser OOB collection. Once in, I did it on a much bigger scale and with considerably greater effect. The great SF writer Ray Bradbury may've had something to do with this. When I heard him speak in high school he memorably said, "When given lined paper, turn it and write the opposite way." It could very well be my core neural wiring, though, for I absolutely hated filling out forms as a child and still do to this day. I'm very good at figuring out all manner of things, despite having seemingly useless bits of seemingly unrelated information. And it's not a grind it out one yard at a time process for me. Instead, it's more of a leap, sometimes immediately, other times after having gobbled a bunch of stuff and letting my subconscious work on it--after which I go in after the fact and figure out how I got there. Used to get into trouble with one of my military aerospace bosses precisely because of this. He was very methodical and insisted on seeing all the intermediate steps. The same thing happened earlier in school with math problems. I'd get the correct answer in classes I could handle, only to be marked down for not showing all the work. Isn't the point of solving the problem to get the right answer?

Michael Emrys,

You are correct. Mostly. It should read Motor Machinist's Mate for the core rating. This is explained a handy guide to WW II US Navy Ratings, Divisions and Pay Scales  I found after I realized you'd gotten most of it right, yet something was still off. From it, presuming I got his class rating right, I can see that, sans any other additional pay, he was making the munificent sum of $54 a month.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited June 7, 2016 by John Kettler

[IronCat60]

I am greatly disappointed in the public's apparent apathy about this momentous date and the complete lack of knowledge by High School age teenagers as to what occurred this day. 

I did a career in the military. I have been on the "two-way rifle range" which during the course of events involved a full on ambush with AT-guns by Iraqi forces. Along with other "fun" activities with the Bad Guys. So I have gone through my level of hell but it cannot compete with what they went through.

With the fate of the free world hanging in the balance, their fortitude, courage and character carried the day. As they gave so much why is it that today's society gives so little regard.

This is similar to a old joke that goes like:  A teacher asked a student if he was both apathetic and stupid. The student replied "I don't know and I don't care".

Unfortunately, except for those who frequent this forum, that seems to characterize most of the people in today's America. "We the people" takes on a sad tone under this banner they are rallying to.  

[John Kettler]

mech.gato,

Well said, however depressing your spot on observations. Compared to what Europeans know of history, the arts, philosophy, logic and more, not to mention languages, we here in the US are whatever is worse than dazzlingly ignorant. I find that a national shame, as I do our ranking in a whole series of areas academic and not. We really need to , as the British so unflinchingly put it, get the finger out and sort ourselves out--while there's still a country to fix!

I'd not encountered that "two-way rifle range" expression before, and I'd be most interested to see you discuss, to whatever extent you feel comfortable, your ambush by Iraqi ATGs. The CMBS Forum would seem a good place to do this, since T-12s are still in use in Ukraine, though not, to my knowledge, as ATGs. I concur that brierf combat exposure, however intense and deadly, isn't at all the same as fighting day after day, sometimes for months on end, with very little down time and no real leave.

Thank goodness we have an all-volunteer force, for I fear that the number of combat suitable draftees would be vanishingly small compared to WW II. Here are the WW II Category F numbers (Table 5), and as a percentage of the intake, they're awful. I have absolute confidence the coddled youth of today, largely unaccustomed to being told what to do, when to do it and how; who generally have known little or no hard physical work, let alone living rough, as exemplified by glamping, and aren't in good shape, would have a considerably higher Category F percentage. Double that of WW II wouldn't surprise me. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it can't be good that much of the populace, which very much includes those of draft age, are on one or more psych meds, never mind doing recreational drugs! I recently learned of a town of 8000 in Oregon in which virtually every resident was on Prozac.

Regards,

John Kettler

 

Edited June 7, 2016 by John Kettler

[A Canadian Cat]

Well I don't know what to say exactly except that all is not lost. I have one kid still in HS and one just in university and I can assure you that they are well aware of the significance of these events. And it is not just then either. While my kids definitely do get extra time discussing history and current events their teachers did a pretty good job too. As far back as grade 8 they were having in class discussions about ww1 and ww2 history and current events.

I know it can be disheartening to hear some people's sad state of knowledge but rest assured that there are some out there that know the score.

[sburke]

It's nothing new.  When I was in high school every year history class would only ever get to the late 1800s by the end of the school year.

[PanzerMike]

What is this D-Day thing of which you speak. Did I miss something  

Nah, just kidding. Been to Normandy many times. Know the place by heart. Have many pics of me and mrs. PanzerMike (plus kids) lying on Omaha Beach. Still gives me goosebumps just being there.

[StieliAlpha]

Well, reading your talking about kids knowledge: It's about the same over here. Just a short while ago, I talked with my 16 year old nephew. And could have gone straight through the roof for his ignorance. He was talking about a class visit to Auschwitz and I had the impression, it was lost time.

Perhaps WW2 is really too far away. I assume, back in 1700, we would have had a hot discussion about the 30-years-war. Would any of you care nowadays?

 

[Aragorn2002]

13 hours ago, TheForwardObserver said:

"i have a cunning plan..."

"we'll use planes with engines, to pull planes without engines, and crash land the ones without engines into the enemy packed with soldiers who'll spring out like candy from a piñata.."

"brilliant baldrick!"

[PanzerMike]

Pretty soon, there will be nobody left that has consiously experienced ww2. In the nineties they made a documentary: last voices of ww1. Soon the last voices of ww2 will forever be silent.

Edited June 7, 2016 by PanzerMike

[IICptMillerII]

Airborne All The Way!

That being said I've always had an immense amount of respect and interest in the boys that hit the beaches, specifically the 29th Infantry Division. If anyone is looking for a great book that follows the Blue and the Gray from training in England, through D-Day and into the hedgerow fighting of Normandy, then I highly recommend "Beyond The Beachhead" by Joseph Balkoski.

John, the YouTube link to the broadcast during the morning hours of the invasion was fascinating to listen to. Great find, thanks for sharing it!

 

Edited June 7, 2016 by IICptMillerII

[Sublime]

Does anyone have figures on how many glider units actually performed well and werent basically broken up completely just by landing? There must have been successes becaude they were kept around but as the war progressed was it more like PIR did invasions and glider troops became elite troops who would be firebrigaded around or what? All you ever hear is horror stories abt gliders but theyre a VERY formidable CMx2 formation.

It all depends on situation. Any beach but Omaha id take a beach landing. Otherwise 101st or 82nd PIR.

Id much rather have fought in the USAAF as a fighter pilot or bomber crew member ( post may 44 only) or if as a ground pounder much orefer to begin fighting after Normandy. I figure the men who survived Normandy had exponentially better chances of survival except for if they ended up in the Hurtgen or the Bulges opening offensive moves. Even though the Germans got a lot more Americans than the Japanese i would greatly preferred ETO to PTO. Booze fraternizing with locals chance to loot stuff ..  enemy that doesnt actually like hand to hand combat and isnt utterly suicidal?

 

And actually now I think about it Im 31. If you.d azked me 10 or 12 yrs ago i woulda given some gung ho answer but honestly if i could choose Id be a REMF sitting in England nice and safe.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Sublime

[Michael Emrys]

I don't think anyone has mentioned the Allied navies at Normandy yet, so I will. My own preference would have been on the bridge of one of the battleships engaged in the pre-landing bombardments and later giving support to the guys on the ground. I don't think I would have liked to be on anything that went close inshore. Too much chance of hitting a mine or being hit by onshore artillery.

Michael

[jtsjc1]

7 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

Airborne All The Way!

That being said I've always had an immense amount of respect and interest in the boys that hit the beaches, specifically the 29th Infantry Division. If anyone is looking for a great book that follows the Blue and the Gray from training in England, through D-Day and into the hedgerow fighting of Normandy, then I highly recommend "Beyond The Beachhead" by Joseph Balkoski.

John, the YouTube link to the broadcast during the morning hours of the invasion was fascinating to listen to. Great find, thanks for sharing it!

 

Another great book is The Bedford Boys about the 29th soldiers from that town. Excellent read.

[Michael Emrys]

9 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

I highly recommend "Beyond The Beachhead" by Joseph Balkoski.

Read that and liked it. Even better though were Utah Beach and especially Omaha Beach. The latter showed me a lot of things I didn't know before, like how the German defenses were finally cracked.

Michael

[IICptMillerII]

1 hour ago, jtsjc1 said:

Another great book is The Bedford Boys about the 29th soldiers from that town. Excellent read.

 

3 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

Read that and liked it. Even better though were Utah Beach and especially Omaha Beach. The latter showed me a lot of things I didn't know before, like how the German defenses were finally cracked.

Michael

Seems like whenever I finish one book, three more take its place that I need to read! Thanks for the suggestions, I'll definitely be checking them out!

Another I've recently added to my list is "All American, All The Way" by Phil Nordyke. Its a combat history of the 82nd Airborne that has been highly recommended.

[Michael Emrys]

1 hour ago, IICptMillerII said:

Another I've recently added to my list is "All American, All The Way" by Phil Nordyke. Its a combat history of the 82nd Airborne that has been highly recommended.

And when you've finished that, you can read On to Berlin by James Gavin if you haven't already (yes, that James Gavin).

Michael