Squads

[Colin]

Hey,

I was wondering if there were predefined squads like in CC2(BAR,Rifle,Assault) or will each squad just carry weapons randomly? Also if you receive resupply can you direct it to a unit that needs it? eg Give units in a hotspot more ammo than say the guys you have guarding prisoners.

------------------

"The object of war is not

to die for your country,

but to make the other

bastard die for his"

George Pat

[Guest Big Time Software]

All weapons are according to standard TO&E, not random or user defined. Resupply only comes into play in campaign scenarios, and it is totally handled by the CM and scenario settings. Units that are cut off will get reduced or no supply.

Steve

[Guest Big Time Software]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I was wondering if there were predefined squads like in CC2(BAR,Rifle,Assault) or will each squad just carry weapons randomly?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Combat Mission has lots of different squad types, especially for the Germans. CC2's types may not always be historically accurate (for example, there is no such thing as a "BAR squad"). Combat Mission's squad types are accurate and real. Here's what we have (apologies for the all-caps, this is copied straight out of a code header file):

INF_AMERICAN_SQUAD_RIFLE_44,

INF_AMERICAN_SQUAD_RIFLE_45,

INF_AMERICAN_SQUAD_PARA,

INF_AMERICAN_SQUAD_GLIDER,

INF_AMERICAN_SQUAD_ENGINEER,

INF_BRITISH_SQUAD_RIFLE,

INF_BRITISH_SQUAD_PARA,

INF_BRITISH_SQUAD_ENGINEER,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_RIFLE_44,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_RIFLE_45,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_PIONEER,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_VOLKSGRENADIER,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_SMG,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_HEAVY_SMG,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_GRENADIER_PIONEER,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_PZGREN_ARMORED,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_PZGREN_MOTORIZED,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_PZGREN_PIONEER_ARMORED,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_PZGREN_PIONEER_MOTORIZED,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_SS_RIFLE_44,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_SS_RIFLE_45,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_SS_PZGREN_ARMORED,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_SS_PZGREN_MOTORIZED,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_FALLSCHIRMJAGER,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_FALLSCHIRMJAGER_PIONEER,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_FUSILIER,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_FUSILIER_SMG,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_GERBIRGSJAGER,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_GERBIRGSJAGER_PIONEER,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_SECURITY,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_STURMGRUPPE,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_VOLKSSTURM,

INF_GERMAN_SQUAD_ESCORT,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also if you receive resupply can you direct it to a unit that needs it? eg Give units in a hotspot more ammo than say the guys you have guarding prisoners.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Resupply is not an issue during a single Combat Mission battle which may only last 20 minutes or so. In campaigns you do need to worry about supply but it's doled about depending on the unit's location (i.e. whether the supply people can reach them and yes you can get cut off behind enemy lines) and how much they need - i.e. did they use up everything they had in the last battle.

Charles

[Rob Deans]

INF_BRITISH_SQUAD_RIFLE,

INF_BRITISH_SQUAD_PARA,

INF_BRITISH_SQUAD_ENGINEER,

Were you aware that the Airlanding Section was smaller (platoon strength of 28 in three sections, all that would fit in a Horsa)? The company kept its strength in that it had four platoons instead of three. The parachute sections were the same strength as normal rifle sections, though. A Royal Marine/Army commando sub-section (actually a section sized unit) was different too. Two assault sub sections of 12 and a support sub section of 5 and a Lt and a Sgt in the Section's HQ made up a Section. Two Sections Made a Troop and five troops and a heavy weapons troop made a Commando.

Rob Deans

[guachi]

I can only imagine that it must have been a nightmare to be a German logistics officer with all of the different unit types. Not just the infantry types but all the different vehicles.

I suspect that it will take a while to get a good feel of the capabilities of all the different squad types, especially German.

Things like remembering the size of the squad and if it is good at long range or short range.

Of course, I could just play the Allies and make things easy.

I already know that I am going to have graphs of firepower over distance; I just didn't realize there would be so many squads.

I can only imagine how large the unit database would be for a period covering the entire war. No wonder you started off concentrating on one year of the war on the western front.

Jason

[PanzerShark]

-The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his - George Pat

Hate to be a spoiler, but the correct words are:

"No man has ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it, by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his".

It's not i'm attacking you, it's just that it's one of the most "interesting" speeches made by this general. And therefore should be quoted correctly.

Take care,

PanzerShark (sorry, just being a pain )

[Stephen Smith]

On the squad list, I noticed that all the American and British squads are specific combat squads (I assume its the same for the Germans, I didnt' recognize all the types, and I'm including engineers here). Do you have other squads to simulate other, rear echelon troops? I am thinking that we may want to simulate an attack on a supply depot, for instance, in which the defending troops are basically supply guys manning the perimeter with rifles and perhaps a few mgs. Or in a battalion battle, if a penetration reached the bn headquarters, there would actually be an HQ company back there somewhere, again consisting of REMFs with rifles, pistols and maybe a few MGs which are poorly understood. If you think these types of situations would be adequately simulated by normal line infantry (or Volkstuurm infantry) at GREEN morale, that may work out. Just curious if any thought had been given to these situations.

Also, I assume that was a list of SQUADS only-there is actually a longer list of all infantry units, including dismounted vehicle crews, hq sections, etc. etc. Am I correct?

Steve

[guachi]

After reading the squad list again, I realized I have no idea what a German sturmgruppe or escort squad are or what formations they would be in.

Anybody fill me in?

Jason

[Herr Oberst]

Maybe we could do a scenario where US rear-line troops get assaulted. heh heh.

Yeah. And they, like, don't have any mortar tubes, you know? heh heh.

But lots and lots of boxes of mortar shells. Yeah. heh heh.

Then they could, like, pull the firing pins, whack the mortar on the ground, and throw it at the Germans? heh heh.

Wow, that'd be really cool. heh heh.

I am cornholio! heh heh

LOL

(sorry, just briefly insane...)

[Guest Big Time Software]

The Escort Company was a divisional level formation designed to (I think) protect Division HQ. You don't read too much about these guys, except for 12th SS' defense of Falaise. The Escort Company was THE backbone for KG Krause:

1 x Company HQ

..1 x Rifle Platoon

...1 x Platoon HQ

....3 x Squad

.....1 x SMG

.....4 x Rifle

.....2 x LMG

.....3 x Panzerschreck Team

..1 x Heavy Machinegun Section

...2 x HMG Team

...1 x Mortar Section

...2 x 81mm Mortar Team

1 x Heavy Anti-Tank Platoon

..1 x Platoon HQ

...3 x 75mm AT

...3 x LMG Team

1 x Flak Platoon

..1 x Platoon HQ

...4 x 20mm Flak

1 x Light Recon Platoon

..? x Kübelwagens (reality it was 18 motorcycles, but we aren't doing those guys)

The Sturmkompanie is something that we included only because it is cool and we had the TO&E for it. We have NO idea if any of these formations fought on the Western Front, but there is a chance. The unit was independent and either Korps or Armee controled (don't know which). Note the size of the squad!!

1 x Company HQ

..3 x Sturm Platoons

...1 x Platoon HQ

....3 x Squad:

..... 1 x SMG

.....10 x Rifle

..... 2 x LMG

1 x Heavy Weapons Platoon

..1 x Platoon HQ

...1 x HMG Section

....2 x HMG Teams

...1 x 81mm Mortar Section

....2 x 81mm Mortar Teams

2 x AT Platoon

..1 x Platoon HQ

...3 x 75mm AT Gun

...2 x LMG Teams

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 10-04-99).]

[Fionn]

Robert Deans,

I have seen differently-sized paraborne and glider borne infantry squads and platoons so yep I think those differences are modelled. The differences are very important so its important to model.

FWIW Sturmgruppe rule.. There's a huge amount of firepower there and really awesome city-fighting potential.

------------------

___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Colin]

Sorry about the quote PanzerShark. My friend told me it incorrectly(He had heard it on TV).

I didn't think they had a BAR squad!! Thanks for all the answers. Can't wait for the game.

[This message has been edited by Colin (edited 10-04-99).]

[Stephen Smith]

It just occurred to me, but if it is so easy to take a game-given squad and remove soldiers from it (to simulate casualties), would it be so hard to make a squad from scratch? In other words, there must be a 'American rifle squad' template with (say) eleven soldiers and their equipment. If I can remove two or three or four of them, and remove any of the equipment I want (BAR or rifle as the mood strikes me), why not allow the scenario designer to ADD two or three soldiers, again with varying equipment? If I want a squad of fifteen, is there that much programming involved in allowing it? If I want to remove six rifles from an American squad and replace them with six BARs, is it possible? This would essentially allow us to create any squad out there, including the odd airborne squads mentioned earlier in this thread.

Steve

[Colin]

I called my friend and told him off. And I have changed my signature accordingly.Just hope the isn't wrong!

------------------

"I'm tired of quotes, tell me what you know"

-Mark Twain

[LT CANADA]

SO you are saying that the only Squads for Britain (Canada and commonwealth also) is Rifle, Airborne and engineers? What about platoon HQ's, Mortar teams, Machine gun teams, Sharpshooters and PIAT squads or Battalion HQ's are these units featured or are they just Rifle, Para and Engineers?

Ok now that im done with that I would like to say that it is really amazing that you mentioned the 12th SS and Kurt Meyers desprate stand at falaise. You guys have really done your homework, and maybe this will stop some people from saying that Canada was too slow in getting to Falaise.

[Moon]

I can just jump in quickly to answer that one - of course PIAT teams, sharpshooters, HQs, Vickers MG teams et al are all in. Steve's list just barely scratches the surface, really.

[LT CANADA]

Thanks Moon!

[Guest Big Time Software]

Yup, this list is for "squads" only. No team serviced weapons were inlcuded for any nation in the list. Think about it... if we didn't list the Bren, but we also didn't list the Browning .30cal or HMG42 I shudder at the thought of the list of all units in the game. Ugh

And KG Krause was backed up by two Tigers as well as misc. units from other formations. A very tough nut to crack.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 10-04-99).]

[dano6]

Hi, LT

Regarding Falaise, the Canadians had their work cut out for them, most definetly. Alot of Canadians died because of moronic decisions made by an English general named Monty. Falaise was a huge "blunder" by the allies in the ETO. Patton had the ability to reach Falaise many days before the Canadians and the English closed the gap. Monty's pure arrogance cost the allies an enormous victory. In its place they got a big victory. Many historians are not very critical of Monty's moronic decision because the allies scored a major victory. But the potential for an even greater victory was present at Falaise and was lost due to the arrogance of one general. If you are interested in some of the decisions made during this battle, read "Death of a Nazi Army" by William Breuer. It is quite interesting how the allied air corps and another English moron(Air Marshall) screwed up and killed many American soldiers.

dano6

[LT CANADA]

Although I agree with some of your comments Dano I dont agree that the Canadians had their work cut out for them. During the Normandy Campaign Canadians took more casualties percentage-wise than anyother allied amry there. It was 2.5 times the Britsh rate and 2 times higher than the American rate, 85% of these casualties were in the Infantry. At the end of the Normandy campaign multiple Canadian battalions had taken 100% casualties, most of them in thier first week of battle.

During operation Cobra, forces on the american first army front were as follows: 2 panzer divisions,one panzer grendier division(with only assualt guns} and no battalions of heavy tanks.

British second army front (of which 1st canadian army: Four heavy tank battalions, one company of King-tiger heavy tanks, Seven Panzer divisions (1st and 2nd SS panzer corps}. of these panzer divisions 5 and a half are east of the orne facing the Canadians!

During the faliase battles the Germans held the high ground, their Tigers and Panthers knocked out Canadian shermans from 1 and a half KM away. and once our shermans bugged out to escape annhailation our infantry would be overrun after taking the objective by SS troops and Tiger tanks. Doesnt matter how many troops they had, they had better tanks, longer range guns (88mm) and better machine guns, and better positions and seasoned officer and NCO's and Also they were SS elite troops, Canadians were never out of contact with the SS during the whole campaign!

While we Kept the enemy panzer divisions pinned down you Americans were in paris. I dont mind that the Americans got the glory, but when it comes to falaise that is a sore spot with Canada, becouse we were the ones going as fast as we could, taking obscene casualties in trying to get the gap closed and yet after all the sacrifice we were too slow, we werent but we had to contend with a batterd but still there SS panzer corp. It wasnt anyones fualt, especially Monty's who allowed his forces to get batterd and bruised so the Americans could break out. Dont say we had our work cut out for us becouse at the time of Falaise the average Canadian infantry company numbered at best 30 men out of 127. With those casualties its a wonder we got to Falaise at all!

I dont mean to sound harsh, and I Dont mean to make fun of Americans in any way becouse we all won that war, im just saying that it was the Germans that stopped us from getting to Faliase not anyone else. We took the crap in Augest 44 and the American took the crap in December 44. Were all equal and im glad that in any future war I would be fighing beside British, American, and germans troops.

[johnnymo]

FYI Lt Canada, to have your "work cut out for you" means that you have a tough job to do, not the opposite. I'm sure dano6 was not putting down the efforts of our neighbors up north, eh.

[Rob Deans]

INF_BRITISH_SQUAD_RIFLE,

Is this the way that the game will describe these units? In the "menu" screen that is. Could you please post the orbat of a British/Commonwealth rifle platoon if it's not too much trouble?

Thanks,

Rob Deans

[LT CANADA]

Actually i was defending Monty but I actually think that Falaise was a very interesting battle. I actually didnt mean to attack Dano I just wanted to talk about falaise, I really am too proud of my army, and if it sounds like I am making fun of another army than I apoligize becouse each army had its strenghts and weaknesses. I meant nothing against Dano, just was talking of a controversial battle a long time ago.

Sorry Dano I meant nothing against you or anyone else.

Thanks for the FYI JhonnyMo.

[Guest Big Time Software]

There were plenty of mistakes, both tactical and strategic around closing the gap. Plenty of blame to go around

Here is a pic of what a Commonwealth Platoon looks like in the editor purchase screen (costs are on the right):

As for the makeup of a squad:

7 Enfields

2 Stens

1 Bren

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 10-04-99).]

[Rob Deans]

I like it, looks good. I don't suppose you could change the name to "section" rather than "squad", could you?

Thanks,

Rob Deans