Price of CM for Overseas Customers

[Royston]

I was looking forward to this title, when I came across a NG post stating that the product would be available only through the Net. I was a little hesitant, but I figured, "What the hell, it's a great game."

Unfortunately, it appears that the price for the program is $45 with an additional $18 for overseas shipping. This is a total of US$63 which is roughly S$100+ (yes, I live in sunny Singapore). That amount of money is more than twice what any other game would cost (Homeworld is S$48). That pretty much ended my hopes of playing the game... except through pirate copies (da da dum!).

Just thought BTS would like to know, because this is a REALLY prohibitive price, and would certainly be a huge shove for people overseas to obtain a warez copy.

Royston

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

The amount of work that has gone in this game is outstanding. They can charge what they please for a quality product. The price is reasonable. Singapore's economy is not BTS' problem.

If you feel that breaking the law is an option, I don't think that BTS should adjust thier prices to change your mind. Save a little money, for god's sakes, you are not buying a mercedes!

[Mike D]

Royston,

The game itself pretty much costs the same for everyone. In fact here in the states I'm having to pay more for the game than you are!!!!!!!!!!!! I get a neato poster for it which they decided wouldn't be easy to ship across the world, but you for all intents and purposes get the game for about $5-$10 US less than I do!!! They did this to help offset the high overseas shipping costs which is really what is causing the game to be costly for you, not the price of the game itself! Also, like John said, exchange rates / Singapore's economy really probably don't matter much to BTS. All I can say is that you are going to be missing out on a really great, quality, product!

Regards,

Mike D

aka Mikester

[Fionn]

Mike D,

Royston has implied that he won't miss out on CM since he'll simply buy a pirated copy..

FWIW I think pirates are scum of the earth and I detest each and every one of them. It's people like them who put conscientious programmers and developers out of work.

I think some of you know my opinion of pirates but for those who don't I think they should be ashamed of themselves and they are simply cowardly thieves who are willing to destroy lives and pirate 3 years of work since they're not willing to pay SIXTY CENTS per week of work.

SIXTY CENTS PER WEEK.

Pirates make me sick and they're nothing better than common criminals and I'd love to see them treated as such.

Not that my opinion will make much difference to Royston but that's just how I feel.

Roystong, I hope you'll prove you're not too cheap to pay 60 cents per weeks work which went into CM.

------------------

___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Royston]

Well, Singapore's economy is an irrelevant consideration, and I took that as an unnecessary slight stemming from typical caucasian arrogance. Yes, now perhaps you feel as offended as I did. For your information, the average sedan here costs about US$100,000, and we have a problem controlling purchasing. The economy is most certainly NOT a problem.

The real problem lies with the fact that new and lauded games such as Homeworld and even Ultima Ascension are going to be shipped in at half the price of Combat Mission for shelf sales. Although one may be deservedly proud of the quality of Combat Mission, I don't think I'd go so far as to say that so much more effort and production values went into Combat Mission than say Close Combat(and certainly not twice as much). Imagine the effect on sales for a product to be put on the shelves costing twice as much as every other product. Unless it's a product that can let one walk on water or create a pillar of flame, I don't think sales will be that good, even if the game is critically acclaimed. And we all know too well how realistic wargames are received by the triggerhappy FPS crowd.

Buying Combat Mission just makes no fiscal sense. There is also the added danger of the package not arriving intact; there will be no immediate remedy since the supplier is overseas. If BTS desires to sacrifice foreign sales, then so be it. I can be pretty sure that the pirates will have it out here for US$3 and it will not be a warez copy, mind you; it will be a stamped CD (plus case). At these prices, I can't afford to support BTS. The alternative is not pretty, and the irony is that the better the game, the stronger the temptation.

Royston

[Ben Galanti]

Well, US $45 is about the normal price for a new game here in the states, the $18 shipping is pretty much out of their control though. I don't find it unreasonable that Battlefront has a set price which is inline with that charged for other games in the states.

[Neutral Party]

Royston said

"Buying Combat Mission just makes no fiscal sense."

This is an interesting pespective and one that bears some examination. My feeling is that buying any half-decent computer game is actually quite "fiscally prudent". Let's say you pay 50 bucks for a game. This should keep you occupied and pretty much incommunicado for a minimum of 3 hours per day for a minimum of four weeks - unless of course you are hopelessy addicted to buying computer games and need a new fix every few days. This is time well spent because you would otherwise have to fill it by spending money on things like food, clothes and trinkets for your wife and self-destructing plastic musical instruments for your children. Now that's just for any old semi-decent computer game. Most of the posters here would probably say that combat mission is better than this because they have already lost entire days playing the free demo. Just think that if you get two lost days for a free demo then for 50 bucks worth you will get 50/0 which is an infinite amount of fun (financially speaking of course).

Just my 0.02$ worth

Joe

[Dar]

Perhaps you and a few friends could get together and order four or more copies and split the shipping costs? They don't charge US$18 for each copy in one shipment, do they?

Please don't attempt to justify piracy by saying you can't afford not to! That is very insulting.

Dar

[Moon]

...especially when the average sedan costs US$ 100k! Paying 20 bucks over what you get other games for suddenly is out of the question? Especially when you get a game that is worth more in playing time than five others together? This is a cheap excuse, a very cheap one.

[Guest PeterNZ]

ROYSTON:

you are quite wrong about the asian economy not being a factor in the prices you mentioned.

I used to work in the software industry here in New Zealand, and it was common knowledge that 90% of the publishers sold product in asia at a significant reduction in price in order to counter the exchange rates as well as pirates.

We were lucky that one distributor here got SSI products brought in as if we were an asian market, resulting in their cost dropping from an average of $100 to $69.95 a game, (that's $35us).

Next time how about you go buy a clue with all that singaporean money?

PeterNZ

[Royston]

All of you have made your valid points. Yes, piracy shouldn't be justified by price. It is not (well, unless there's a monopoly).

What I'm really saying is this: I'm being frank. If you don't like to hear the bitter truth about why people buy pirated games, fine. Flame me. Go ahead. Hey, I deserve it.

But at the same time, listen. I'm one of the few people who are willing to express the precise reason for choosing a pirated copy over an original one. It may be a bad reason, but it is MY reason. If BTS desires to convert me, what I have to say is important. If it seeks to continue on its course, fine.

The problem is this: I can buy two top-quality original games providing me maximal enjoyment for the price of one Combat Mission. I have thoroughly enjoyed Homeworld. I suspect I will thoroughly enjoy CC4 (whenever that comes). I think Combat Mission is great, but for me, it is TOO EXPENSIVE. So I give it a pass.

The next problem is this: it is WIDELY AVAILABLE AS A STAMPED PIRATED COPY. My friends will be playing it. My friends will be asking why I am not playing it. I tell them I can't afford it. They laugh. They ask me why I want to fork out S$100 for a manual and a box (given that I already fork out S$40 right now). Whatever moral reasons I spout sound puritanical and stupid. My good friend buys me a pirated copy for US$3 out of pity. I play it.

Guilty? Yes. Blameworthy? Yes. I make no excuses for my behaviour; I am wrong and I wish I had the strength (or money) to do otherwise. But I don't. BTS can either take that to their marketing department and figure something out for their overseas sales, or they (and you) can blame me and do nothing.

Royston

[Moon]

Sorry, Royston. I don't think BF.C will offer YOU the game for 3 US$.

[Guest Scott Clinton]

Royston,

FWIW this game is costing me almost double what I generally pay to. I live in Texas.

I don't know about these other guys that say the generally pay $45 for a game, but I DON'T.

$30 is generally maximum for me, but with shipping this one is almost double that.

At least give eBay a shot before you stoop to buying a pirate copy, its worth a try and that way you will get a manual too. I am sure a few click-fest people will be selling their games on eBay after it comes out and they realise its not another Close Combat or C&C clone.

------------------

The Grumbling Grognard

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

And the computer/internet connection you have costs 3 $ too? Homeworld came out recently and you have the cash for another new game. You don't want to pay full price because you think/know you can get a better deal. So why ask for the price to be lowered if that's the case? Because maybe it's not so easy, maybe you will have to wait, maybe you have to take a risk, . That's why you should buy the original.

[Guest aaronb]

Roystan says:

"Whatever moral reasons I spout sound puritanical and stupid."

My suggestions:

1) don't 'spout' them - just state them.

2) they will only sound stupid to your 'friends' if you, yourself, believe them to be true.

3) get some new friends if you can't deal with the peer pressure of the ones you've got.

4) get and read "The Fountainhead" and "Atlas Shrugged" to understand the full meaning of your suggestions.

[Royston]

Scott, thanks for the suggestion. I think I will check out eBay for a good price instead, since you're probably right about people seeking to dump Combat Mission when they find out it's not an RTS.

John, my internet connection is free.

PeterNZ, if BTS is going to be competing with Asian prices, don't you think that's going to be a major stumbling block for sales, given the widespread, almost rampant piracy?

aaronb, having been through the military, peer pressure isn't as easy to ignore as it sounds. I've done things, far worse things, than buy pirated software. Peer pressure isn't solved by reading a book. Conformity is a societal norm. The society here condones piracy. It's not just my friends. They know it's 'wrong', but the cost of following copyright laws doesn't make any sense to them.

Part of the issue is availability: if every pirated game cost only US$3, could be replaced if defective, was available within 10 minutes walking time of your house and your entire neighbourhood condoned the purchase (or prefers it), I wonder if you'd be making the same condemnations.

Sometimes, I wonder if I'm just better off keeping quiet and and just ripping game companies off, instead of telling them the extent of the problem. I feel like I'm being targeted for having a serious problem with choosing and voicing it.

However, I'm happy that most of the people in this thread have been rather rational. Those who have not, well, you know who you are.

[Guest Lokesa]

My 2 cents.

your comparing CM to other top-quality games. I haven't found a game truly satisfying for a long time. All these other top-quality games are great but just dont work for me, CM is what I've been looking for. BTS has taken the time to create a product that meets my needs rather than that of the masses. I am definetly willing to spend more than on other games as I expect CM to stay on my hard drive and also to support wargaming in general. Most wargames out there are garbage IMO they may be set in a war envirionment but have had to comprimise to such an extant as to make them unsatisfying for me.

Maybe it's all the time I've spent hanging out here, but BTS is not some abstract company, it's Steve, Charles and the graphics guy How freacking cool are these guys? way freacking cool. Stealing from them would be a bad thing. On top of that it's a game, not a neccessity for survival (I realize this is debatable) if you cant afford it, you dont have to steal it.

[dumbo]

"Well, Singapore's economy is an irrelevant consideration, and I took that as an unnecessary slight stemming from typical caucasian arrogance. "

Should we take your activity as typical aisan corruption and lack of respect for the law?

Just becuase I cant afford French wine doesnt mean its Ok for me to steal it.

[This message has been edited by dumbo (edited 11-03-99).]

[Guest PeterNZ]

"PeterNZ, if BTS is going to be competing with Asian prices, don't you think that's going to be a major stumbling block for sales, given the widespread, almost rampant piracy?"

I'm saying they're not going to compete with Asian prices, since only the very large companies can, (EA), either through dropping prices or actually employing pirates to pirate and sell their own games, (if piracy is rife, might as well try and make some money from it).

It'd be my guess that most software companies have pretty much given up on the Asian market for the near future.

PeterNZ

[Fionn]

Screw all this reasonable chat

Pirating is WRONG !

It is ILLEGAL !

It is MORALLY WRONG!

That Royston doesn't care about the morals says VOLUMES about his moral character.

Pirates ARE wrong and pirating a game like CM where every lost sale really DOES make a difference is morally and consciously evil.

ROyston I said it before and I'll say it again "Pirates are nothing but thieving scum>"

You say you will pirate SO you know what I think of you if you do.

As for being "good" to come on here and tell it here to our faces.. Well that simply shows you don't have the good sense to commit illegal and morally wrong actions in secret. It CERTAINLY isn't some indication of moral upstanding behaviour.

You ruled yourself out of that group a long time ago.

------------------

___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Sten]

Royston,

if you like the game, as you seem to do, don't you want more games like this one? When I was 15 or so (IBM XT, with the 'turbo' it got up to 4.77 MHz, no hard drive) I had lots of more or less pirated games. In the following years I saw more than I wanted of developers going out of business after one game, often a really good one, no less. After realizing that by pirating I (yes, 'I', no-one else) condemmed these guys to chapter 11 , I decided that that was not something I wanted to be a part of.

Since then I've bought every game that ever was on my hard drive. And I'm damn proud of that because I know that I (no-one else), through my money, have been instrumental in producing the titles I like.

I don't pride myself with having especially high moral standards, but you should feel gratitude towards ALL the buyers of the games you and your friends pirate. The games are there because of them.

Either buy the game at full price and enjoy it. Or, don't buy it and miss out on a good thing. Choosing (the non-)option 3, enjoying it without paying for it, for WHATEVER reason just makes you a parasite.

Sten

[Fionn]

FWIW I don't hold anything against people who did once pirate and now don't... We all make mistakes.

I do get annoyed at people like him who gleefully chat about putting companies out of business (what he is in effect doing.) simply because they're too cheap to pay the price. Cut back on a few other things and buy it.

------------------

___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Jeff]

Hi guys !

I totally agree with Fionn who says that pirates are scums and that they should be prosecuted. But living oversees (in Switzerland) I can understand Royston's reluctancy to buy a product (even if it is the best of the world) that is cheaper than the shipping. It makes no sense to buy a car if the fuel you use costs more than the car itself. Could BTS do like other do, meaning finding somebody to "produce" the game ? I don't know if the word I used is correct but what I meant was finding a company who would take care of the packaging and shipping so we could find it on our favourite store.

I think some of you are already getting mad at me for saying that. To make myself clear I would like to emphasize the fact that I hate piracy and that it does no good to the gaming world. A great game should be rewarded by getting the sale money. Further more that will encourage and help finacially the producer the creators of wargaming or any game to make better products.

Cm is a great game, probably the best of its kind. And the people who did it should be rewarded for it.

THANKS GUYS !!!!!!

[Fionn]

Jeff,

Unfortunately, when you join a publisher to have your game published they have a HUGE say in the game. They have marketing weasels tell you how to make your game.

Also, if BTS decided to publish into stores itself there is a thing known as "buy-ins" etc etc. basically BTS would have to PAY thousands of dollars to have its games displayed on the shelves.

It simply isn't worth it for them plus their game vision would be compromised.

------------------

___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Richard]

Look its simple capitalism and choices.

IF the game is too much for you to consider, then it is too much for you to consider. It is nto BTS's fault that you want to commit illegal acts (oh GOD this argument still kills me to this day).

Sometimes I can understand some of the folks who get upset when Microsoft makes you pay 200-300 dollars for an upgrade of a product that you need to perform certain work related functions. Some of this is software development and R&D costs, some of it is typical Microsoft greed.

However this is not the case here.

I would also add that Id you decided to do this and still posted to this board I would hope that BTS would get your IP and email info and turn you into the local authorities and SPA.

BTW what do you do for a living? Would you like it if I stole items you produced?

------------------

Richard Arnesen

The Wargamer

http://www.wargamer.com