Guest titan Posted October 8, 1999 Share Posted October 8, 1999 How will snipers be portrayed?if at all. Will they be part of the squad or as a individual? Nothing like getting personal with a sniper especially when one has Herr Oberst in his sights!! Im sure though id hear him scream from 12,000 miles away when i start kicking his butt. Boy he aint gunna be able to sit down for a week the time im through with him Titan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken B Posted October 8, 1999 Share Posted October 8, 1999 An AAR for that battle is a must! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted October 8, 1999 Share Posted October 8, 1999 CM has what is called Sharpshooters. This is NOT the kind of highly specialised and highly skilled elite soldier some might expect, but rather an "isolated rifleman" (I read somewhere that "snipers" were to be called like that officially during WWII) with a bolt action rifle. They are quite fun to play against (Fionn made a scenario with them once where the sniper wiped out my FO team before I could find him). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Oberst Posted October 9, 1999 Share Posted October 9, 1999 *lying prone on the terrain* Range me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rock Posted October 9, 1999 Share Posted October 9, 1999 Great response. Even so I'd be afraid. Titan must have one hell of an impressive rifle if he can hit you half way around the globe. ICBB (Intercontinental Ballistic Bullet). And then we have to consider the scope that can pick out a man sized unit around the curvature of the earth. Impressive technology our brothers across the Tasman have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Jenkins Posted October 9, 1999 Share Posted October 9, 1999 They will have to do sniper teams for the Eastern Front version. I want to read "War of the Rats." Any reviews? ------------------ Climb to Glory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Oberst Posted October 9, 1999 Share Posted October 9, 1999 No review, but I would like to be able to gin a scenario where a small team of snipers are supposed to hold off an infantry assault. With a few snipers, it could be a real game of cat and mouse. Or should that be cat and wombat??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apocal Posted October 10, 1999 Share Posted October 10, 1999 I dont think snipers would fit into the scope of a battalion-level game. Sharpshooters yes. Snipers (using the definition of someone who is shooting at you, and you dont know where it is coming from) are used mainly as harrasement forces, to slow a pursuing enemy. If you wanted a game where you spent 3+ hours trying to "make contact" with an enemy force on the run, this would be appropriate. But I dont think many of us want that type of game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JonS Posted October 11, 1999 Share Posted October 11, 1999 Apocal, if you consider the current AAR game I think that some (2-3) snipers on the US side would have been _very_ useful. In the woods, as a tripwire they would have slowed the advance, and in the open around the wall-line could have been used to go after high-value targets (AFV commanders, FO teams, etc). Now, the casualties caused would not have been great, but certainly annoying, and if they caused a distraction from the objective, well, it all goes toward winning the battle. So, IMO, I think that they do fit into this scale game. Also – and this is from memory so I welcome corrections – I have a feeling that snipers/sharpshooters (what’s in a name?) are a battalion level asset, and so for completeness (as a combat capable element. Please don’t give us a field kitchen unit “because it was in the TOE” ) should be in anyway. How well you, as battalion CO, use them is part of the combined arms problem. JonS ------------------ Quo Fas et Vino du Femme [This message has been edited by JonS (edited 10-10-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 11, 1999 Share Posted October 11, 1999 Some battalions had sharpshooters (snipers) for sure but generally they were sprinkled around. What we think of as Snipers (the guys that went to special schools) were assets even higher up than battalion from what we can tell. In any case, their use in a CM style battle is marginal at best. I personally rather have a HMG42 or .50cal than a sharpshooter in a pitched battle. Or better yet, a 14" naval artillery spotter Point here is that in a normal combat situation there are far more valuable units. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonFox Posted October 11, 1999 Share Posted October 11, 1999 Hey what's wrong with a "field kitchen unit" after all an elite "field kitchen unit" is probably better than a regular squad. "This was the occasion when Wonga Hogan, one of the companies cooks, from outback Queensland, led a bayonet charge with only a blanket wrapped around him flapping as he ran" History of the 2/2 machine gun battalion. A fearsome sight I am sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apocal Posted October 11, 1999 Share Posted October 11, 1999 JonS consider the role of a Marksmen/Sharpshooter/Sniper. Precision long range rifle fire. During a firefight very few oppurtunties exist for precision fire (most of the sniper's time in actual combat would be spent with his head down). When I said harrasement I meant a SS Battalion pulled back out of a town, but left a single sniper behind to delay the Allied Battalion so the rest can get away. During a real ugly battle (like the one running now) you wouldn't even take notice of a single Sharpshooter. There are more worrisome things afoot (tanks, MGs, rocket arty). Its hard for something you don't know is there to slow you down. ------------------ "Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter." Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Oberst Posted October 11, 1999 Share Posted October 11, 1999 Given some of the issues facing players in the game between Martin & Fionn, I think that a Sniper or Sniper team, who could attempt to selectively eliminate command teams could be a large influence in a battle. How long will the squads remain coherent or effective if the leadership is shot out from under them? What if an AFV commander gets picked off in his turret? Suppose Fionn's Panther was still around, but without the commander? Buttoned-up and reduced visibility/threat awareness, better than nothing, but not as good as if a sniper had not killed the commander. Having no command and control in a battle is almost as detrimental as straight losses from the ranks. From one perspective, consider a well-led half-squad versus a full squad with no leadership? Which would you choose? Hypothetically speaking, if my sniper takes out, say "Major Titan", a glorious and charismatic leader of his troops, well that might just revert his troops to a bunch of leaderless Kiwi rabble, rather than the effective combat force they are. I think that snipers / marksmen / sharpshooters are morale weapons, not a decisive engagement weapons. A "small cost" weapon with potential return that far outweighs its cost. [This message has been edited by Herr Oberst (edited 10-11-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 11, 1999 Share Posted October 11, 1999 Guys, In our present game I had two sharpshooters who killed probably 6 or so US soldiers but I don't think Martin even noticed that I had any until one surrendered to him.. Anyways at a range of 400 metres or so a sharpshooter is about as good as a sniper... I think the distinction many people are making between snipers and sharpshooters laregly dissapears when you play. Sharpshooters are roughly the same in a game of this scale and that's what counts. FWIW I find the most effective way of using them is to take out FOs and leaders. (and Tank Commander's of course) just like in real life. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 11, 1999 Share Posted October 11, 1999 Herr Oberst, rarely will a sharpshooter find itself in a position to alter the course of the battle. In a CC sized engagement this can happen, but in a CM sized one any kills are just a drop in the bucket. Yes, he might be able to waste an FO (the smallest and most valuable unit in the game many times), but the enemy player would be stupid or really unlucky to have exposed the guy to such fire. Best you can hope for is pinning down and causing a unit a casualty or two. Nothing game altering. Wasting TCs, HQs, FOs, etc. is FAR easier to do with a MG unit or artillery fire. This is why I say I would rather have a HMG than a sharpshooter. MGs can waste dozens of guys, including entire units, while a sharpsooter is likely to only take out 4-6 men. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JonS Posted October 11, 1999 Share Posted October 11, 1999 What about the snipers/sharpshooters other ability; to provide a lonely overwatch on part of the battlefield. Its already been determined that a squad is easier to hide than an AFV, and a small squad easier than a large one … so a single man in good cover that hasn’t moved should be REALLY hard to spot from any sort of distance. In the meantime he can be happily relaying information on what is going on to his front. Steve; isn’t an FO forced to expose himself and his team to fire if he wants to use observed fire? JonS ------------------ Quo Fas et Vino du Femme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 12, 1999 Share Posted October 12, 1999 Sharpshooters in CM are indeed very hard to spot, so they are good observers. Unfortunately, they are also "expensive" ones FOs do indeed have to get into a clear LOS to bring down spotted artillery. However, that could be from 500-1000m away. A sharpshooter doesn't have a hope of nicking two individuals at that range. Observers travel light and in pairs so they aren't the easiest things to spot either. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bobb Posted October 12, 1999 Share Posted October 12, 1999 JonS, My concern with this type of overwatch is the possibility of its being gamey. If combat capabilities of squads or especially half squads degrade due to not recieving commands from leaders of higher echelons or even of their own unit, then these guys should not be able to recpricate to provide a window of view for their commanders. Yet, as you state this capability appears to exist. The battlefield information of a unit out of touch with its higher commanders is just as good and informative as others. True for others as well as in this case. What such a guy or unit spots and shoots should not become a view point for the controling player. Yet denying that to the player would create problems in controlling such a unit so why have him at all. So making him a marksman under the control of a platoon or higher commander pulls in his reins a little. A marksman with a radio would make sense in such a role. Radios if made available to player assignment could keep units on special missions in command and control until such equipemnt or personell was lost. Out of command and control, the marksman becomes the slower duller sort of thing that a half squad becomes, but a quality half squad. It appears to me that command and control issues are the most difficult of resolution in attempting realistic computer wargaming, in their inherent contridictions between satisfactory game play and reality. What if such radioless units were to become icons and eventually dissappear as enemy units do depending on the same LOS rules for any player contact And their own spottings or activities not be available to the player except as perhaps sound "sightings" when firing or moving (vehicles). Here a special AI and game engine code would have to take over their activity. Suppose a player commander sent out a patrol that a game engine coding determines loses radio contact or carrys no radio at all. Then the mission of that unit had better be explicit in its orders and the code able to handle it as effectively as the enemy under its AI. Suppose that its contacts become available only upon return to command and control. Such sightings as it had would show up normally and then go through the normal iconizations. (I like the sound of that, sort of like ionizations and as subject to ephemeralization) Here I am already dreaming, Enough of that. A dreamer should be able to work dreams into reality and I am as impotent as a post in this case. Future dreams: CM is the future present and may it be the parent of more dreams and even greater reality. To the future, CM; Skoles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 12, 1999 Share Posted October 12, 1999 Such C&C stuff is WAY more complex than we can deal with any time soon. Making a single exception for "this unit really shouldn't give you such and such" is not a very good solution. You see, NO UNIT in CM, other than an HQ unit or vehicle, has a radio. But these radios were pretty limited. They generally only sent messages to specific receivers. In other words, some random Platoon HQ unit wouldn't be able to listen in to reports coming in from a scouting tank. That info would have to travel around a bit before it would be received by it, if ever. Radios were not constant chatter boxes, so chances are not much would be sent back and forth. So in this sense, CM is not very realistic. But the only solution is a draconian stripping of pretty much the entire ability for the player to see and control anything. In other words, we don't have a game any more. And since a wargame without the "game" bit is a yawner, it isn't going to happen until we find some clever way of simulating the complex information aspect while retaining the game. And that is not something we can just toss in. Probably take us 6 months to make such a system if we even knew what that system would look like Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted October 12, 1999 Share Posted October 12, 1999 Steve, Yes, it would be difficult to put in. You (the programmers) would have to plot the radio network for the entire force, from C.O. down to the lowest unit. You would have to separate the nets into BN command net, Company Command nets, to Platoon nets (if available). Then you would have to simulate the reporting time for the company to disseminate information both up and down the chain... this would have your scouts (for example) perhaps sighting something minutes before you see it on the battlefield, and by the time you do, the information is obsolete. You would have to have friendly unit locations disappear as enemy units do when you lose sight of them. Then you would have to re-do the way the whole control structure is currently implemented. The player would only be able to give orders to company HQs, unless, say he is collocated with a Company, then lower echelon orders should be possible. Yeah, pretty complicated... (would be really cool though) Perhaps better kept for an Operational level game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JonS Posted October 12, 1999 Share Posted October 12, 1999 Oh no! What have I done! Don't let Charles hear about these ideas or he'll hunt me down with something really painful. Honestly, I was only trying to show the usefulness of snipers/sharpshooters at this scale. I'm soooorrrryyyyy..... JonS ------------------ Quo Fas et Vino du Femme [This message has been edited by JonS (edited 10-12-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bobb Posted October 12, 1999 Share Posted October 12, 1999 Yeah Bobb, hang down your head in shame. To even whisper something that would imply that Charles should tear into his code at this stage is criminal, much less suggest the thing be gutted and started over, a hanging offence. But I did say the area involved seemed likely the most difficult to deal with for any game system and that it was a dream. Of course I was not the only one stirring the soup either, Bill. Ol' Steve takes us so oooo seriously. I am glad he does, but sometimes it makes us feel bad when we are just thinking out loud to see him swallow the hook so deep and run so hard with it. I suppose it is necessary to head off any innocents out there who might take hair brained ideas too seriously. Especially if the ideas contain elements of attraction. This is an interesting area for thought. It seems unlikely that a DIFFERENT game could be put together along the lines of (whisper)CM (unwhisper)and not require a lot of jacking around to find a suitable compromise between playability and reality, with explicit elements, both visible and hidden, and abstracted elements. As Steve indicated it would take some mind bending envisioning to even start in that direction. But what an attractive dream, only made possible by the current state of the art design, CM. See. Jon, what tangled webs we weave when we first start to concieve? Actually I think Charles is probably adequately insulated from such as this; but poor Steve is riding herd right out on the front line, and no doubt going nuts trying to keep all the wild beasts headed with the herd and running towards a delivered CM ready and functioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 12, 1999 Share Posted October 12, 1999 hehe... don't worry. If I even suggested that he make a change of this sort at this stage (and I wouldn't ) he would simply ignore me There has been several discussions about simulating higher levels of FoW. The problem is that to really do it right removes the game part of wargame. A few people might like to play such a thing, but neither Charles nor I fit into that camp. So it won't happen. Still, we do have some thoughts to make advances in this area. Just need a LOT more time to develop them and they will not be 100% realistic for previous stated reason. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest titan Posted October 12, 1999 Share Posted October 12, 1999 Well as far as snipers go in a major battle,and as far as steve commented on the fact the damage they would do is very minimal,which i agree with.But i read countless incidents involving snipers in the battle of stalingrad how alot of german units were being decimated by them ,now that is what i call a major battle over 1 million men involved!!!one could almost say a thousand cuts will make many wounds.i also believe a snipers roll is to choose there targets as well, taking out key personal which would be more damaging than killing a lager number of individuals. Shooting a large beast in the head will bring him down more quicker than many hits to the body. Titan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Oberst Posted October 13, 1999 Share Posted October 13, 1999 Agreed Titan. (Wow! We can agree on some things... ) If I recall my reading correctly, especially around Stalingrad, a sort of sniper cult grew up among the Russian forces. Favorite targets were the occasional officer who unwisely showed his head, the poor sods who were carrying meals to line troops (not much more disheartening than watching your dinner spill on the ground), and lastly, anyone you could get a clean shot at. It was so bad that the Wehrmacht dispatched their best sniper (he ran the German sniper school) to Stalingrad to try and take out a famous Russian sniper there. I believe the Russian had something like 79 kills. Unfortunately for the Wehrmacht, their premiere sniper was dispatched once too often, if you catch my drift. [This message has been edited by Herr Oberst (edited 10-13-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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