Scenario Info Help?

[lurrp]

I have been planning to take the plunge into scenario design once RT comes out. Recently, I came across an anecdote that I think would make a cool scenario. It involves the aufk. battalion of the 23rd Panzer Division near the town of Krosno, between 27 and 28 July 1944. Basically, the 23rd was committed into a defense of the region without a great deal of intelligence as to the Soviet whereabouts, and deployed its recon elements to try to get a handle on the situation while the rest of the division assembled and formed up. The recon troops, under the command of a certain Rudolf Koppe encountered Soviet tanks and infantry to the northeast of Krosno. There they managed to destroy five Soviet tanks and repelled about a battalion of infantry, stalling the enemy advance until heavier mechanized forces showed up and forced the Germans back. Koppe got a KC of the Iron Cross out of the engagement for buying time.

If anyone has any knowledge on the Soviet forces in the area at the time, details of the battle, or any other details, I'd welcome any help or advice.

[JonS]

Can I suggest that you try something a little smaller for your first scenario? Bn vs. bn(+) is a big scenario by any standard, and you're setting yourself up for a LOT of work.

It's an interesting tac problem though. Light but experienced forces facing large numbers of heavy tanks. Maybe consider scaling it down to coy vs coy(+)?

[Der Alte Fritz]

George Mc did a very similar CMBB scenario called "Tankyvi Desant" which was a reinforced Soviet tank company (acting as the very tip of the spear of a rapidly advancing Tank Army) bumping into German Recon forces. Very large map, very few forces.

http://www.blowtorchscenarios.com/Tankovyi%20Desant/Tankovyi%20Desant%20scenario%20details.htm

The key here is that the Soviets are not interested in finding the Germans and destroying them, they are interested in finding a way round the Germans to continue the advance, follow on forces will find and engage. They find them, fix them and go around. They only fight when they have to and Soviet reconnaissance is based on stealth rather than fighting for information.

You can make a really interesting scenario from this kind of situation - Germans are stumbling around in the dark, on the defensive, Soviets are trying to find their way forward and past any Germans, will fight against weak opposition if needed but do not have the time or resources to engage in a heavy battle, knowing that 50km behind them is a vast armada of troops.

A large board is a help here and an asymetrical placing of the opening forces, Germans down one side, Soviets trying to go ACROSS the board from one end to the other. Use dark, fog, mist, etc to increase the confusion and give both sides orders so that keen commanders will bump into one another but not press too hard. Perhaps give the German commander a number of objectives in front of him to defend (only one of which is likely to be used by the Soviets) if he chooses. You really want to push the German commander into finding out the situation in front of him so that he can take decisive action (perhaps by sending later reinforcements to the correct point) while the Soviet commander is using his FLANK SCREEN forces to delay and conceal his intentions while his main tank force roars off down the board and captures that vital river crossing.

A good way to confuse the Germans is to make it seem as if they have control over one edge of the map while the Soviets control the other 3 edges.

[lurrp]

I had planned this to be a company-sized scenario from the start, simply because those are my favorite to play. I don't think this would be a completely historical scenario, due to the fact that the Germans seem in a very bad situation. In the actual engagement, Koppe only had two AT guns at his disposal, and was faced with at least two platoons of tanks and probably a company or more, plus a battalion (+) of infantry. Therefore, I think I'll augment the Germans with light infantry guns and armored cars, just in case the Soviets get lucky and knock out one or both of the AT guns quickly. For the same reasons, I'm considering giving the Soviets only one tank platoon, and limited to no indirect fire support. Any more thoughts?

[Der Alte Fritz]

Krosno is in southern Poland around 200km to the west of Lemberg (Lvov) and its great railway junction and is just to the south of the great railway line that runs from Lemberg through Przemysl westwards to Krakow and then into Silesia and the German junction of Oppeln. It is just to the north of the famous Dukla Pass through the Carpathians and close to Rzeszów the largest town in SE Poland.

This places it firmly in the L'vov Sandomir Offensive by the 1st Ukranian Front. This particular area was covered by the Cav Mech Group No.1 (Baranov) who role was flank guard for the main thrust of the 1st Guards Tank Army which was several hundred km to the north and west and would arrive on the eastern bank of Vistula on the 29th July. To the east the 4th Tank Army, 38th and 1st Guards Army were trying to destroy the XXXXVI Pz Corps and XXIV Pz Corps of 1st Panzer Army to the south of Lemberg and pushing them back to the Carpathians. They would fail to encircle these forces who would live to fight another day. The principal loss would be the encirclement at Brody

Into this 300km 'gap' between the forces around Lemberg and the defenders of the Vistula drove the 23rd and 24th Panzer Divisions of LIX Corps who held positions about 60km apart, the 23rd was obviously guarding the Dukla Pass which if captured would open up the interior of Romania to invasion. German reinforcements would seek to close this gap which they would succeed in doing by the 8th August. But by that time the main Soviet force would be across the Vistula and forming the bridgehead from which the Vistula-Oder Operation would be launched.

So Soviet forces are:

CavMech Group No1

1st Guards Cav Corps (1st 2nd 7th Cav Divisions)

25th Tank Corps (111th, 162nd & 175thTank Bde 20th Motorised Bde)

58th & 61st Tank Regt

1451st. 1244th, 1253rd SAU Rgt

143rd 1497th AT Regt (plus another from 3rd Guards Army)

2nd Guards Mortar Bn

319th & 1702nd AA Regt

28,969 men, 366 guns and mortars, 74 At guns, 50 AA guns, 303 tanks and SAU. (133 T-34, 47 T-70, 50 Other (probably Lend Lease, captured, etc,) 1 ISU152, 3 ISU122, 20 SU85, 49 SU76, total 303)

The operation starts on the 12th July and ends on the 18th August so almost three weeks into the operation on 29th July the Soviet forces would be quite worn down and coming to the end of their strength.

CavMech Group 1 had orders to sweep along the northern edge of the mountain chain as flank guard for the main offensive

The 23rd Pz organisation - the closest I can get is from late 1943 (Kreigsgliederung Band II T78 Roll 407 H1/97) which is here:

source The Battle for L'vov July 1944 Soviet General Staff Study David Glantz & Harold Orenstein published Frank Cass 2002 (I am proud to say that I helped publish it.)

[Der Alte Fritz]

Panzer Recon Bn in more detail (I hope)

[lurrp]

Wow, thanks so much for the detailed info. I have a book on the 23rd Panzer, so I'm good in that respect (that's actually where I read about Koppe in the first place). Fritz, you pretty much read my mind: I had planned/hoped to make a campaign covering the battles at the Vistula of the 23rd PD. I was interested in the 23rd primarily due to their large numbers of captured kit, which should make for some fun and characterful engagements.

[womble]

Wow, thanks so much for the detailed info. I have a book on the 23rd Panzer, so I'm good in that respect (that's actually where I read about Koppe in the first place). Fritz, you pretty much read my mind: I had planned/hoped to make a campaign covering the battles at the Vistula of the 23rd PD. I was interested in the 23rd primarily due to their large numbers of captured kit, which should make for some fun and characterful engagements.

I think you may be disappointed at the outset, since the indications I've seen are that captured gear isn't going to be a big feature of the initial release. Which isn't to say you couldn't start building the thing with placeholder "native" equipment, and roll in the captured stuff when the pack or module with that content is released. It's not going to be a short task, creating a campaign

[Der Alte Fritz]

You can have a look here (using Chrome browser to translate the site for you) at the history of the 25th Tank Corps:

http://www.tankfront.ru/ussr/tk/tk25.html

and 1st Cavalry Corps

http://www.tankfront.ru/ussr/kk/gvkk01.html

The Two independent Tank Regiments I listed above were assigned to the 1st and 2nd Cavalry Divisions and they were equipped with Valentines (around 40) and Honeys (around 20). The Tank Corps was equipped with T-34, SU-85 and SU-76 and was certainly held in reserve behind the Cavalry who scouted forward. So I suspect that your action was between Cavalry backed up by Valentines (40mm or 6 pdr) and Honeys (37mm). Try initially with T60 or T70 until the Lend Lease stuff is delivered by BF.

I think your action could well be represented by the Germans in the south scouting northwards and the Soviets with orders to move from east to west across the board with an objective on the far side of a large map. Make the map very large, fairly open but divided up into 6-8 'boxes', that will help your Germans with their longer range fire but still keep the mystery (if you keep the forces small enough they can occupy only one or two boxes at a time.) Give the Soviets a handful of T-34 and proper infantry as reinforcements at the end to give the Germans a bloody nose but not long enough for them to wipe them off the face of the earth and you should have a pretty good semi historical scenario. Remember to give the Soviets enough brownie points for getting from one edge of the map to the other so that they do attempt it rather than swinging round into a full scale battle. This will compensate them for the extra expenditure on the 'heavy forces' at the end which cannot be used to their full effect.

[mg422]

I hope that there will be a deluge of scenarios created once RT comes out. Also if any one knows a guide or pointers out there how to transfer scenarios from CMx1 (CMBO, CMBB) to CMx2 (CMBN, CMFI, and CMRT). I would love to see it. I know of GeorgeMcs CMSF scenario manual and the CMMG guide but would like to see how something from CMBB could be modified to CMRT. I know the difference in game engines and map making are a few hurdles, but some tips and tricks would be nice.

Panzer Truppen by Jentz is a great source for TOE.

[womble]

...if any one knows a guide or pointers out there how to transfer scenarios from CMx1 (CMBO, CMBB) to CMx2 (CMBN, CMFI, and CMRT). I would love to see it. I know of GeorgeMcs CMSF scenario manual and the CMMG guide but would like to see how something from CMBB could be modified to CMRT.

I think your best bet is learning how to use the map overlay graphic to grab (a screen dump of) the x1 map into the x2v2-plus map editor so you can draw over it... I don't think there's any more automation available than that.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Well Jentz gives figures for strength of 23.Pz.D as 31st May 1944 as:

10 PzIV (10 operational)

52 PzV (26 operational)

other than that it was a long serving Panzer Division on the Ostfront and had not been destroyed at any point, so it is not specifically mentioned in the 1944 reorganisation.

The standard Panzer Division 44 structure lists the Panz. Aufkl. Abt. as a Headquarters, 3 PzGr Kompanie in half tracks with an armoured car Kompanie (again in half tracks). This differs from the Sept 43 one that I posted by changing a motorcycle Kompanie into a half track Kompanie and dropping the wheeled armoured car Kompanie. So not a huge difference for our purposes. Perhaps the Divisional History has something to say on the subject.

[mg422]

Womble thanks for the advice. Start doing it once 3.0 version comes out.

Found from Rosado and Bishop that the 201st Rgt. (book is Panzers of WW2, Brief summary of each division found at Barnes and Noble for $12) , had the following at some point in time from 1943 til the end of the war.

Pz III: 24

Pz III (75): 17

PZ IV: 30

PZ Sturm-i G: 7

PZ Bel: 1

[lurrp]

Yeah, I was aware that there'd be no actual Soviet vehicles in German service coming with the initial release. I was just going to do the thing where you change nationalities in the editor to gain access to another force's TO&E. It's not perfect, but it will do until real captured kit is released. The site bayonetstrength lists the 1944 Pz.Aufk. battalion at two halftrack-mounted recon companies, a halftrack armored car company, and a heavy company with AT guns, infantry guns, and 81mm mortars. This is what I had been going off of for the Germans, with Zaloga's Companion to the Red Army giving me info on the Soviet Cavalry and Mech forces.

[womble]

Womble thanks for the advice. Start doing it once 3.0 version comes out.

If you have v2 of the engine, you could start learning that one right now in preparation!

[mg422]

I am a big fan of the game and not to be a downer but...

I feel like with the game the way it is configured, the true effectiveness of the pz. aufk as a unit is not very well modeled in the game. Halftracks with their limitations (rarely using their guns) and being way too easy to destroy. Same goes with the armored cars and aa units to some extent. AT guns and their issues with set up and movement (also limited ammo supply for an 88 mm). Off-map Artillery and lack of effectiveness against destroying tanks (can immobolize but need 155mm or higher to destroy). No motorcycles. On map SPs not being able to indirect fire. Make it a unit that somewhat reflects the deficiencies of the game, there are work arounds but still should have been fixed by now.

Womble if we have to wait much longer for RT then I will start making 2.12 versions of cmbo scenarios. Rather start doing it with the latest and greatest version. All about the triggers. Will let you know when the first one is ready.

[womble]

I feel like with the game the way it is configured, the true effectiveness of the pz. aufk as a unit is not very well modeled in the game. Halftracks with their limitations (rarely using their guns)...

I have to take issue with this. Half tracks will use their guns exactly as often as you tell them too, given the limitations of crew survivability. If you're too close (or the enemy is Crack Ami paras with autofire weapons out the wazoo) you'll lose a lot of track gunners, but they can be effective if you know there are no ATGs out there at all.

...and being way too easy to destroy.

"Too easy to destroy": on what are you basing that assertion? Having just played A Sonny Day where the only support assets for suppression were the half track MGs, I lost a bare handful of Hanomags, to tank fire, 81mm (I think; might have been heavier) mortar direct hits in the crew compartment and bazookas. I have a feeling there might be a flaw in the model, having lost three buttoned drivers at long range with no hit text, which implies there's a gap between plate coverage, but the halfies, being fired at their frontal aspect from level ground a decent distance away, were mostly shrugging off the rifle calibre hits. Let them get flanked by close range unsuppressed infantry and you'll see a different story, which is realistic, as you'd expect from the simulationist model of trajectory and terminal ballistics.

Same goes with the armored cars and aa units to some extent.

The only complaint about AA units I've seen is that they're too hard to kill. And ACs seem pretty survivable against threats they were meant to be able to stand up to, to me. I've even seen them survive multiple 88mm hits (it hit a wheel and the flexible .50cal on an M8, and that damage is probably capped so it only ended up immobilised).

I think the Aufklarungs units are going to be even more effective in RT because the engagement ranges temd to be longer in the Steppes, and the infantry don't have much ManPAT. AT Rifles will punch through their armour, but only make little holes.

AT guns and their issues with set up and movement...

I've said my piece on this, and will not enter into any further discussion.

...(also limited ammo supply for an 88 mm).

This, I agree with. Especially in situations where there are "iffy" sight lines where you just have to let the TacAI send rounds downrange to hit trees, because the opposition tanks certainly will be and eventually one will get through. However, this looks like it will be addressable in RT because of Ammo dumps and trucks having all ammo available for resupply.

Off-map Artillery and lack of effectiveness against destroying tanks (can immobolize but need 155mm or higher to destroy).

This is not accurate. A direct hit on the rear deck with 105 will destroy a tank. Might do the same with other top hits on some of the thinner skinned beasts. This seems plausible to me.

On map SPs not being able to indirect fire.

Only relevant on truly massive maps. If you're designing a scenario where SPGs were firing indirect they should be designated offmap.

Womble if we have to wait much longer for RT then I will start making 2.12 versions of cmbo scenarios. Rather start doing it with the latest and greatest version. All about the triggers.

I wasn't suggesting you do more with 2.12 than futz about with ways of getting x1 maps into the overlay, and get comfy with how that helps.

Will let you know when the first one is ready.

I'll be pleased for you, but you sound like you mean business, and it'll be a while before I get to RT.