Preacher Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 Wow. Fionn and Martin, et al were sooo right. I played the scenarios again and was handed my head on a platter! Particularly in the Resi... scen (Amis). I did not use the same setup and plan that i had used the first time. In fact, I felt that i maneuvered more effectively the second time around. But boy oh boy did the AI spank me. The two 88s showed up in completely different locations than in the first playing. I was more careful (i thought) about armor and inf in mutual support. However, one of his 88s had LOS to virtually all of the road. My BIG mistake. In the first playing, I had 2 Sherms in staggered formation on the road that were overwatching one another and obliterating everything that showed its face. I also had a 3rd Sherm on my right that patrolled the outskirts of Reis... and the german left flank. This time, however, I lost 3 tanks in 4 turns. 2 to 88s and one to a 'schreck. I called in a smoke mission on both 88s (too late) and was able to close assault one. The other one, seeing no LOS opportunities because of the smoke, manhandled that baby thru the haze and came out blazing. Geez, what a cool AI... I had to surrender. Nowhere to run to, nowhere to hide. Bold AI move of the day: I was playing the Germans in the same (Reis...) scen. After knocking out my 88s within 30 sec. of each other, the AI buttoned up a Sherm and drove it through the open lane a bit left (American left) of the road - straight into town. MGs were blazing. 'Schrecks missing all over the place. HE rounds flipping earth. When he passed the 1st objective building (on the church side of the road), he wheeled the tank around 180 deg to face his own lines (and keep his front armor pointed at the myriad of threats) AND DROVE THE TANK BACKWARDS ALL THE WAY INTO MY EXTREME REAR, firing as long as he could. When he reached the map edge (MY map edge), he disappeared into a little US symbol. Quite bold. Very cool. Also disturbing.... Preacher [This message has been edited by Preacher (edited 10-29-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 Preacher, I ORDER you to write an AAR of your next game and email it to me damnit. Everyone's having so much fun playing it I want to start seeing AARs soon PS. Told ya.. The AI isn't a waypoint-obsessed fool. It really does play like an average human player. There is NO "I've won it 4 times so this scenario is easy.. I've figured out the key." The AI might beat you the 1st time or it might lose 4 and only beat you on the fifth. The point is that it can win as either side with a little luck (same as a human ) ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Oberst Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 Jesus Christ! What kind of monster has Charles created?!? Doing a 180 and backing through town... sheesh? You didn't, per chance, hear an "I'll be back" from that tank as it left did you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuNZ Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 LOL. I can just see it . A new clinic starts up for "AI Savaged" players because it's never happened enmass before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 I've seen it happen once or twice before too. Once (and this was REALLY funny and a really weird example of the AI being too smart for its own good) an AI-controlled Sherman was targetted by an 88 in a pillbox as it was coming down a heavily wooded road.. The Sherman backed up to get out of LOS but got stuck in front of another Sherman behind it (but managed to get out of LOS).. A traffic jam ensued as the various vehicles on the road got all muddled in together and it ended up with some of them reversing their way out and others turning 180 degrees so they could drive forwards AWAY from my pillbox. Anyways, I moved some infantry up to the road figuring I'd get some easy Panzerfaust kills. The front Sherman (which by this point is facing away from me) sees this and starts to reverse the hell TOWARDS my pillboxes and troops at full speed. Now, I'm sitting there thinking to myself.. UHOH AI bug. Gotta report this.. The AI's reversing into trouble.. THEN I saw what the little bastard did next. As it reverses past my infantry it lays waste to them with HE fire and machineguns and continues reversing SO quickly that my AT guns (which are 100 metres or so from the forest edge) don't get a bead on it.. I had two AT guns in pillboxes, one on either side of the road... The AI tank reversed RIGHT PAST them down the road in between them, stopped a few metres behind the pillboxes and proceeded to shell them t bits. Luckily I had a hidden infantry unit nearby which got the tank a couple of minutes later but by then: a) all the vehicles on the road has gotten off it without loss due in large part to the reversing tank which suppressed the attacking infantry as it raced past them and both pillboxes were rubble. The amazing thing was that it SEEMED the wrong thing to do at the time to me BUT reversing that tank out ensured that it wasn't simply sitting still on a road where it was guaranteed to be knocked out by my panzerfausts AND it also got two pillboxes and thus cost me 2/3rds of my AT pillboxes. I've seen the AI do some things I'd never have thought of. Sometimes they don't come off and I laugh at it but sometimes they do and it hurts bad.. For some reason the AI is sadistic and LOVES putting tanks along your path of retreat ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 Preacher: Some of your comments reinforce the impression I formed early on that, more than any other wargame, CM rewards those who formulate their plans while keeping in mind the question of what would I do if I were the enemy. If something looks like a good avenue of approach to you, it probably does to him as well, and there's a good chance that he's taken steps to do something about that. Fionn: Amusing as your reversing tank story is (and it is very amusing), there's something about it that sticks in my craw. Tanks, and almost all other military vehicles (except for some armored cars that were specifically designed for the purpose), are very hard to accurately control while moving in reverse. That's why they would move slowly while doing so. They whould also have to have a crewman (usually the commander) with his head out calling directions. So from the sound of it, I would tend to consider your reversing Sherman just barely this side of impossible in the real world. Program might need a 'leedle' fine tuning. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 Oh this was a previous beta and those things were pointed out by me Still, a 120 metre reverse over a good straight road is possible IMO. PS a tank going in reverse should be very easy to control since so long as track rotation is equal (easy to achieve) it would simply go straight, which it did. Normally they go slow to avoid making crunchies (or squishies) but in battle its a different matter Like I said this occurence is one I remember BECAUSE it was so unusual. If it happened every battle I'd report it as an AI bug but I've seen it three times in 5 months ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preacher Posted October 31, 1999 Author Share Posted October 31, 1999 And now, the rest of the story... Well, the brilliance of the now-famous reverse tank run through Reis... (will i ever learn the name of that town? ) showed itself in the next seveal turns. Poor Preacher was interdicted EVERYWHERE. My reserve platoon had no chance to get to the front. They remained alive and in good order, but couldn't move. The bugger pasted everything that moved. Heck, he had the high ground affording great LOS to most of my positions. When I finally got everyone hidden, he brought in the infantry asault (and, btw, another Sherm around my left flank!). I was toast. Fionn - regarding reverse movement: that Sherm didn't seem to be moving very fast. He was certainly buttoned, but not going real fast. Seemed credible to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 Michael, I agree that reversing a tank is not easy in some ways, but is FAR easier in others. Try driving in reverse in a straight line in a car while not looking. VERY hard to do. Try that in a tracked vehicle. VERY easy to do. Fionn is correct, and I can say so from experience. I have a 1944 M29c full tracked cargo carrier. Going in reverse is a joke it is so easy. Just shift in reverse, push both track levers forward, and there you go! I remember the first time I did this too. I thought it should be MUCH harder, but because both tracks are rotating at the same exact rate, and you have to make NO adjustments to keep it that way, it is very easy. Of course this doesn't prevent you from running over stuff like, uhm, a used case of motor oil (not that I did that, er, much ). Seriously though, I can probably do about 1/3 my top speed (36mph top, so 12mph) in reverse. Some tanks even had up to 6 reverse gears (mine only has one), though most were meant for power rather than speed. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 What? Steve, did it happen AGAIN? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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