Richard III Posted December 8, 1999 Share Posted December 8, 1999 Included in the units list are the "88mm Raketenwerfer43 Puppchen" and "8cm Panzerabwehrwerfer 600." Now I am ashamed to admit it in the presence of all the grognards here, but I have never heard of these before. It seems obvious from the weapons' names what they are, but someone here must be able to describe them in some detail. Any web site info? TIA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Posted December 8, 1999 Share Posted December 8, 1999 The puppchen was the percursor to the schreck. It use an 8.8cm rocket (like the schreck)that was fired from a small wheeled chassis with a shield on it. It actually looks like a little anti-tank gun. The Germans phased them out as soon as they captured some bazookas and started manufacturing the RP43. Still looking for info on the ...600. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Posted December 8, 1999 Share Posted December 8, 1999 As near as I can tell (so far) the Panzerabwehrwerfer is a recoilless rifle. I am assuming this one refers to an 8cm bore and a range??? of 600 meters. I will do some more digging to see if I can find anything more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted December 8, 1999 Share Posted December 8, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As near as I can tell (so far) the Panzerabwehrwerfer is a recoilless rifle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I believe you are right. There were two recoiless artillery weapons developed for the Fallschirmjägers. One was 10.5cm I believe. Most of my books are packed up for a move so I won't be able to check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeathome Posted December 8, 1999 Share Posted December 8, 1999 According to my trusty (but old) WW2 Fact Files book on AT weapons, the Puppchen was developed to try to overcome the short range of the 'schrek rather than being a precursor. It used a different rocket - same warhead by the look, but longer, and had a 600m range As for the other - I have no idea. The 75 and 105mm RCL's for the paratroopers carried the designation "Leichtgeshutz" or "Ruckstossfrie Kanone", so it aint's one of them. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted December 8, 1999 Share Posted December 8, 1999 The Puppchen was, in fact, the precursor to Schreck. The Puppchen was rolling off the assembly line at about the same time that Germany encountered the Bazooka in Tunisia. The Germans realized that the Bazooka was much simpler than the Puppchen and designed their own accordingly. They used the same 88mm rocket of the Puppchen midified to fire electrically. The only information I have on the PAW 600 is that the Germans mounted cut-down French 75mm guns on the PAW 600 anti-tank gun carriage. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 8, 1999 Share Posted December 8, 1999 Actually most of what has been said is wrong. Mikeathome got it most right though. The Puppchen is more properly known as the 8.8cm Racketenwerfer 43/ It fired the SAME hollow charge 8.8cm rocket as the RacketenPanzerbuchse ( Panzerschreck... Army nickname = Ofenrohr) The rear of the tube was closed, thus trapping more gas and imparting greater velocity to the rocket thus enabling it to fire farther. Muzzle velocity was about 40% greater than the Panzerchreck and range was about 6 to 700 metres. it was mounted on a small two-wheeled carriage since the amount of recoil increased hugely with the closing of the barrel end and was pretty much team-portable since the whole thing only weighed 143 Kg. The 8cm Panzerabwehrewerfer 600 ( 8cm PAW 600) is more correctly known as the 8cm Panzerwurfkanone 8H63 seemingly although everyone I know simply calls it the 8cm PAW600. It used the high-low pressure principle which basically involved some fancy engineering which meant that the barrel wasn't subjected to high stresses (thus could be made light) and the amount of pressure increase per unit time could be controlled thus the gun was accurate and reliable (in a statistical sense). They modified an 81.4mm mortar bomb which could penetrae about 150mm of armour at to about 750 metres. The REAL genius behind the PAW600 is that it only weighed 600 KG (even when strengthened after initial field trials showed the initial versions were SO light as to be fragile) and could use modified mortar rounds (in easy supply). It would have answered, in part, the German need for more AT guns. It should be noted that BOTH of these weapons only had a maximum range of 700 metres or so and that that was felt to be quite adequate in an AT gun (this feeds into the expected engagement range issues). Hope that helps. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Posted December 8, 1999 Share Posted December 8, 1999 Dammit, I should have known better than to answer before Fionn did Now I have to go find more (better) books for my library. Oh well, something to do while waiting for my review copy to arrive hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 8, 1999 Share Posted December 8, 1999 Review copy? Who are you reviewing it for if you don't mind me asking? You can answer by email if you want ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Posted December 8, 1999 Share Posted December 8, 1999 I'm just making a poor reference to my post in the "Evaluation Copy" thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard III Posted December 8, 1999 Author Share Posted December 8, 1999 Thanks for the answers everyone! When did the PAW600 come into service? I assume it is a late war weapon. I think that both Craig and myself should be shipped review copies to uhhh... evaluate the use of the weapons or something.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Posted December 8, 1999 Share Posted December 8, 1999 Yes, that's it!! I have an ongoing report to make for someone and I must evaluate something for it and Richard is assisting me and it has to be done sometime and we need all the help we can get and Combat Mission has become my life and if I play the demo again I will go insane (oops, too late) and a review copy would help and this report is important and and and and... (keyboard explodes) Craig (doing my best to make sure there is no extra bandwidth on the internet) Harvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 9, 1999 Share Posted December 9, 1999 Yup the PAW 600 was actually the name for the carriage this was mounted on IIRC although most people think of the 8cm PAW600 as THE PAW 600. I remember some 75mm French guns mounted on PAW 600 chassis for example which could be confused by people if you simply refer to the PAW600. Nice try guys, don't think it'll work though ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lokesa Posted December 9, 1999 Share Posted December 9, 1999 So when did this weapon come into service? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 9, 1999 Share Posted December 9, 1999 Production began by Wolf_magdeburg in December 1944. 260 were produced along with 38,400 rounds. Few reached the front lines though, seemingly. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted December 9, 1999 Share Posted December 9, 1999 Fionn said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It fired the SAME hollow charge 8.8cm rocket as the RacketenPanzerbuchse<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Minor nitpick. They were not exactly the same hollow charge. In order for them to have been the same they would have to be identical to one another. But there is at least one slight difference between the Puppchen rocket and the Panzerschreck rocket. The Puppchen rocket was fired with a percussion cap to ignite the rocket motor and the Panzerschreck was fired electrically (like the bazooka). Also, the Puppchen rocket was the RPzBGr 4312 weighing 2.66 kg and the Panzerschreck rocket was the RPzBGr 4322 weighing 3.27 kg for the RpzB 43 and 54 and the RPzBGr 4992 weighing 3.25 kg for the RPzB 54/1 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Muzzle velocity was about 40% greater than the Panzerchreck and range was about 6 to 700 metres.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yep. About 150 meters to 110 meters. From what I've read, though, the effective range, especially against moving targets, was less than 700m (about 250m) because of the rudimentary sights on the Puppchen. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>it was mounted on a small two-wheeled carriage since the amount of recoil increased hugely with the closing of the barrel end and was pretty much team-portable since the whole thing only weighed 143 Kg.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It could also be broken down into seven parts for easy transport. And it could cut a tin can as easily as it could cut a tomato. Wait a minute... I had it confused with the Ginsu knife for a moment. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I remember some 75mm French guns mounted on PAW 600 chassis for example which could be confused by people if you simply refer to the PAW600.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What with all the odball things the Germans came up with it's hard to keep track of them all. The Puppchen was manufactured by Westfallische-Anhaltische Sprengstoff AG at Reinsdorf. The few that were produced before production was abandoned and switched to the Schreck were sent to Tunisia and Italy. Some actually ended up as beach defense weapons in the Atlantic Wall. Panzerschreck production was so important that by 1944 it was being produced at seven factories and sub-assemblies at many other minor factories. Cost was an astonishingly low RM70 and 289,151 of the first two models were produced in 1943 and 1944. 25,744 of the final model (the 54/1) were built and over 2,000,000 rockets had been manufactured. Other bits of Schreck trivia. There was ammunition for winter and summer. The front sights had marks for +20C and -25C. The rear sight had an aiming off plate. The Panzerschreck had a safety. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonFox Posted December 9, 1999 Share Posted December 9, 1999 Hey could you run with that PAW thingy (ducking for cover) OK, OK, just kidding guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 9, 1999 Share Posted December 9, 1999 Ur right of course.. I just didn't want to complicate things for people who don't know about these things.. I was referring to the hollow charge warhead. The rocket of course differed slightly although basically the same. 1. Muzzle Velocity seems to have been 145 metres per second. 2. Maximum range was 700 metres. Effective range was of course less. Same goes for zooks and schrecks. maximum range is almost always more than effective range. PS. You forgot the blast-plate to prevent rocket blast from hurting the firer's eyes. Simonfox, yeah, incredibly funny not... This forum is spiralling downwards. It's gonna crash and burn soon. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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