Innefective SMG squads?

[Guest PeterNZ]

playing Riesburg as both sides i've seen the SMG squads curl up and die quicker than.. something proverbial.

In a game where i was on defence one smg squad lost a firefight to a rifle squad. Both in wooden builds etc etc, but the smg squad lost half its number in 60 seconds, whereas the rifle squad maybe lost one man.

On the offence and i've seen exactly the same thing again. SMG squad over a period of two turns goes from full strength to 2 men and doesn't kill a single of my men. He's in a foxhole in woods and i'm in a wooden building. No other units fired on either of these two units that entire period.

I would have thought that the SMG squads would excell in close combat and shred the rifle quads of the yanks, esp. since they're veteran. But seems you just can't rely on them to kill anything.

what's going on?

PeterNZ

[Fionn]

I think you're using them wrong.

I'm using SMG squads quite well and have shredded a few platoons of Americans in Riesburg with a nicely timed counter-attack.

I've definitely killed more US than I've lost in infantry to infantry combat..

My guess is you're doing something wrong.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Guest PeterNZ]

Well it's nice to say that.

but one on one, my expectation is that a veteran SMG squad should beat a regular rifle squad.

Two houses, seperated by 20m, one with a us squad, one with a german squad.

What could i possibly be doing wrong? They meet, shoot and hte germans loose three times as many men as the americans. It's happened twice, once in my favour, once against. To me it doesn't make any sense. I'm interested as to ideas why that might be the case?

Sure, if i use them, (or my enemy) in a super-smart way i'll get good results, use anything well and you will. Doesn't change the fact that there should be some baseline facts, like SMG squads close are more deadly all things considered, than a rifle squad.

any ideas?

PeterNZ

[Fionn]

Well, I don't know Peter BUT I can tell you some of my PBEM opponents DO fear German squads and have seen 8 man German squads rip 12 man US squads apart in seconds.

Things you're doing wrong:

1. You have your guys poorly placed so they don't get the first shot off.

2. You've forgotten that a German squad loses FAR more firepower per casualty than a US squad. A German squad which has lost 4 men is down to 50% of its firepower. A US infantry squad which has lost four men has 8 men left ( 2/3rds) and probably has 75%+ of its firepower intact.

Once a German squad takes a few casualties it is in DEEP trouble. Unrealistic expectations and not enough analysis of the various squads is also partly to blame I'm sure.

BTW check out the firepower ratings Peter. SMG squads up close are a little stronger than a rifle squad but FAR more brittle. once they suffer two casualties and are facing anything more than a 9 man US infantry squad they're dead.

There are no set rules in CM. CM is about "feeling" the battle's ebb and flow and about intuiting who is still able to do what on the field of battle.

I know it sounds wishy washy to say that but that understanding and sensing comes with time.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Beamup]

Currently playing a PBEM game in Reisberg and my opponent made VERY effective use of one of his SMG platoons. Set up an ambush in an unexpected place, basically exterminated an entire platoon for no losses at all that I could see. More generally, in my experience, SMGs tend to shred rifles at close range, but the rifles win at long range.

[Brian Rock]

I'm surprised to hear you have found SMG squads to be ineffective at short ranges.

For example, in a game I was playing last week my opponent had a full strength US 12 man squad rush a house with a 7 man SMG squad. I took casualties, but his squad disintegrated.

In an earlier game I've had two depleted SMG squads stand up to a couple of assaults by 2-3 US squads... addmitedly the third wave toasted them.

It's always a bit hard to analyse these situations without the full picture. Were your guys suppressed? Did the US have any fire support from other units? What was the morale of your units like? Were you just unlucky?

Anyone else have any problems with SMG squads?

[Guest Big Time Software]

Peter, range is crucial here. SMG squds at anything over 100m are not very effective. Note that there are two types of VG SMG squads. One is a "heavy" squad which had rifles and a LMG. The theory is to use this one as supress targets at longer ranges and use the other two squadsin the platoon to do the close in fighting (less than 100m or so).

Also, if the squad is tanking hits from other units, it is obviously going to be at a disadvantage.

Steve

[Mark L]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Anyone else have any problems with SMG squads?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I haven't had a problem yet... in my first playing, Riesburg, as the YANKS...

First one I met in the trees. They seemed to shoot at my running squad from somewhat long range for SMGs - one casualty. I then brought up the rest of the platoon and wailed on him from >40 meters. They've since run away and been no more trouble. Took a few more casualties, but not many.

Second one I encountered in a building in town. Two rifle squads kept him occupied, while a third sqaud rushed him from a different direction. (LOVED the grenade toss animation!) SMG quickly annihilated with no loss.

Close assault with supporting fire - the RIGHT way to do it, and it worked just like I expected.

Mark

[This message has been edited by Mark L (edited 11-07-99).]

[Rob Deans]

"Two houses, seperated by 20m, one with a us squad, one with a german squad."

I don't know if this aspect is included in the game but 9mm Parabellum (MP40) will not penetrate walls of a house if there is any substance to those walls. 30-06 (M1) on the other hand..........

"A German squad which has lost 4 men is down to 50% of its firepower"

I question the validity of this arguement...... First, to establish, a Yank rifle squad has its firepower rather evenly distributed (self loading rifles and a rather pedantic automatic rifle). The German contemporary, on the other hand, has its firepower chiefly centred around one weapon, the section LMG (MG34/42). This weapon is the "raison d'etre" on the German rifle section and is manned at ALL costs. So, for a Yank squad to loose, say, half it numbers, its firepower would drop correspondingly. A German squad which takes 4 of 8 men as casualties, still has the gun manned and the majority of its firepower at hand. This is a well documented strength of the German infantry orginazation and I am rather suprised that the statement was made. I could, of course, be completely missunderstanding the point, in which case please enlighten me.

Thanks

Rob Deans

[Guest L Tankersley]

Rob,

your point is true for standard (in as much as there were "standard") German squads, but they're specifically discussing the SMG squads in the Reisberg scenario. The SMG squads have I believe 8 MPs, while the "Heavy" SMG squad has 6 MPs and 2 LMGs.

Leland J. Tankersley

[David Stone]

Peter,

Not certain, but your SMG squads in Reisberg are not "veterans".... I think they are just classed as "regular" in terms of experience.

Maybe that had something to do with them losing the close combat against the US rifle squad ??

Later Stoner

[Guest Big Time Software]

Rob, you are correct, but as Leeland stated we are specifically talking about a unit armed with only SMGs. Your point about the distribution of firepower applies to Allied units as well, since they had a BAR/Bren and some SMGs as well as rifles.

The point Fionn made, when applied to non-SMG units, is still valid (although generalized, since CM's firepower ratings are based on weapons, not headcounts). Basically if a German unit takes 2 casualties it loses a significant percentage of its firepower as opposed to the 12 man US squad losing the same number of men. Basically, a tit for tat trade of men weakens the German units more significantly with each single man lost. This then gets into some heavy laws of odds and probilities that show that the US squad will have a greater chance of wiping out a German one for each casualty the German one takes. This is the whole problem with the German Army by 1945. High degree of firepower, but reduced staying power when compared to Allied units (especially US ones).

Steve

[Rob Deans]

Man, conversations on this board are great.

"specifically talking about a unit armed with only SMGs"

Oh,....I see, sorry, I misunderstood.

"(when applied to non-SMG units) if a German unit takes 2 casualties it loses a significant percentage of its firepower as opposed to the 12 man US squad losing the same number of men. Basically, a tit for tat trade of men weakens the German units more significantly with each single man lost."

Please explain the logic behind this explanation. The way I see it.....If the MG42 provide 80% of the section's firepower and the rifles/SMGs the rest, then the section can still operate with, say, three men manning the gun and still have that 80% fire power. Now, if the American section is reduced to three men, because the firepower is spread MORE evenly accross the squad, those three men will not have anything close to 80% of the squad's firepower (not to dicount the BAR but it can't muster the same kind of firepower as the MG42).

I had the oportunity to listen to a German company commander from the war. One of the most interesting points he made was the answer he gave to his own question.

"How many men do you gentlemen think I had to have in my company to remain effective?" (Full strength was 120)

People paused and whispered among themselves disscussing the possibilities.....Some answers were given,...."80,......No.......75....No.....50.....No......" I needed 37 men in my company to be effective. I had nine machine guns. I needed three men per gun and the leadership element of the company. This was from a man who fought the Russians.....This statement seems to qualify the opposite to the point above.

Rob Deans

[Fionn]

Rob,

As others have stated my 50% statement was confined to the Light SMG squads ( 8 MP 40s)...

As for the machinegun thing.. Well, with the Germans in normal squads with MG42s with every man they lose they stand a HIGHER chance of losing the LMG 42 and thus they are far more fragile than the US infantry squads insofar as they are more likely to lose their hevay firepower after 2 or 3 casualties than the Americans are.

A bit of an abstraction i grant you but reasonable IMO.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Guest PeterNZ]

Let me reclarify.

Germans in a stone house, either it was a SMG or Heavy SMG, i know it was a vet squad. In both instances, (when i was german, or when i was US) the SMG was ready for the germans in the second tier buildings. The american's enter and the two squads start shooting. Although there was a total of three american squads present throughout the two minutes it took to destroy the German squad only one american unit was firring at the SMG squad.

The American's started about one man down in their regular riffle unit, the germans one man down. The germans never through grenades, the yanks did, and at best in total killed one man. In one turn the Germans lost three men to gunfire, about the same the next turn or whatever, resulting in on soldier freaking out who ran and died. The US lost almost nothing, -maybe- one soldier.

Me as the US annihilated a SMG squad in pretty much the same situation.

I accept it may be an abberation, i just thought it odd. I mean, the volumes of lead that 8 mp40's or 6mp40's and 2 mg42's can unleash at close quaters is huge compared to a rifle squad. I just thought 'dollar for dollar' the vet germ smg squad would quickly knock the Yanks down.

Relying on that lost me the game since my second tier defence just crumbled and hte yanks marched into town. That didn't bug me really, i was on the way to loosing, it just seemed rather odd.

Maybe force moral was too low??

PeterNZ

[Dar]

Rob,

30-06 in an M1? Are you sure about that? That seems a lot more powerful than the plain .30 round I assumed they used.

Still better than that 9mm short round, but the 30-06 seems to be a bit too much.

Dar

[Los]

"As for the machinegun thing.. Well, with the Germans in normal squads with MG42s with every man they lose they stand a HIGHER chance of losing the LMG 42 and thus they are far more fragile than the US infantry squads insofar as they are more likely to lose their hevay firepower after 2 or 3 casualties than the Americans are."

How do you figure that? (Maybe I'm misunderstanding what youa re saying?) Unless a freak round actually disables the MG42(or it breaks in some other manner) then it will be remanned at once as is the SOP of any unit (from any country in any war since there's been MGs). The MG (or largest casualty porducing weapon if there is no MG) will always be the first weapon remanned in the case of loosing a gunner. (Though you could argue that effectiveness will drop somewhat due to not having the primary gunner there.) If that's what CM is doing then it's wrong. (I doubt that's what CM is doing but I've always assumed that it was handling the casualties/remanning MG thing correctly)

Los

[Fionn]

Peter,

You REALLY need to check out the firepower that these squads can put out at 40 metres.

Your preconception is costing you dear in this case. Subtract one MP40 from a German squad and the firepower of 1 M1 from a US squad and then compare their firepower rates. You'll see what I mean.

Los,

Well CM has a high probability that the MG is remanned BUT my point is that at a certain point it IS lost (and we both know that squads don't simple deteriorate to one guy firing an MG42)...

My point is that with 8 men vs 12 and BOTH sides trying to keep their MG42s or Bars in action for the longest time possible the German squad is gonna lose the MG42 through to casualties sooner than the US squad will lose the Bar (most of the time).

Check it out in the game.. I've been keeping an eye on this and find it works well enough. Maybe you'd disagree but check it out in the game to see how it works.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Los]

"heck it out in the game.. I've been keeping an eye on this and find it works well enough. Maybe you'd disagree but check it out in the game to see how it works."

No I don't really disagree I was just surprised because I just assumed that was how the game worked, the LMG is remanned for as long as feasibly possible (meaning until you are down to two or three guys) unless a freak occurance breaks the gun. That's how it works in real life, per SOP, as stated in the german sqad manual (and ours too) etc etc. But I had missed the point that you were talking about a numbers game, with less guys your squad is going to run out faster, that make ssense, As long as that LMG stays manned until the last (within reason.) But before any squad gets that low it should begin to suffer adverse morale effects that will casue it to lose interest in doing what you want it to do anyway.

Los

[Renaud]

"30-06 in an M1? Are you sure about that? That seems a lot more powerful than the plain .30 round I assumed they used."

The .30" M1906 round fired by the M1 Garand is known in civilian use commonly as .30-06.

This is also the close equivalent of the 7.62 x 51mm NATO round. The .30"/.30-06 is 7.62 x 63mm but the bullet weight is unchanged. Muzzle velocity is 853 m/s in both cases. The MP40 fired a very light bullet at about 365 m/s.

When folks talk about a german squad losing a mg42 under fire consider that due to circumstances other men in the squad might not be able to recover the weapon and/or ammo. Obvious reasons would be panic/retreat, the weapon is covered by enemy fire or lost due to hand to hand combat or lost due to catastrophic jamming when fired continuously for too long in a stress situation, etc etc etc. Also the heavy belted 7.92 round meant not too much could be carried so it's very likely the mg42 would run out before other small arms considering it's effective rate of 300 or so per minute (with barrel changes).

Simply put, the germans had too many eggs in one basket unlike US infantry squads which had a devestating weapon (the M1) available to everyone.

-Ren

[This message has been edited by Renaud (edited 11-08-99).]

[Los]

Actually the civilian equivalent of the 7.62mm NATO round is the 308. Sometimes when we have'nt been able to procure andy or enough Gov 7.62 match for our M24s we go out and get 308 match grade ammo for our sniper rifles for training.

"When folks talk about a german squad losing a mg42 under fire consider that due to circumstances other men in the squad might not be able to recover the weapon and/or ammo."

That's a given, but in most circumstances where the squad is otherwise remaining in a normal non-shaken or paniced state, where it suffers casualties the squad will reman its crewserved weapons before it does anything else. It will make every effort to do so, since it's survival depends on the firepower as does that of the platoon and company.This is important and something not really up for debate as it is clearly stipulated in the german squad combat manual and is something matter of fact in every army. The squad or platoon will always man it's crew served (or other highest casualty producing weapons) first! Both on the fly and as a matter of reconsolidation and reorganization.

It is clear that circumstances can lead to the physical elimination of the LMG, or to having a squad enter a morale state (i.e. paniced) where it will not recover the LMG or due to some other circumstance (i.e. pinned) cannot get the gun back up for a certain number of turns. Hopefully what CM is NOT doing is randomnly picking casualties amongst the squad and if that casulty happens to be the guy lugging the LMG then the LMG is lost to the squad for the duration of the scenario. Can someone in the known **** us a little wisdom here?

Los

[Ben Galanti]

According to some of Steve's earlier posts, the squads in CM will attempt to keep their major weapons (MG42s, BARs, Panzefausts, etc..) I think basically there is just a much higer chance of a rifle being lost when a casualty is taken then one of the more important weapons...

[Guest Big Time Software]

Los, my understanding of how it works is that a casualty is randomly chosen first. If that casualty has the LMG (MG42/Bren/BAR) there is a high chance that someone else will take the bullet for him, so to speak. Example:

2 hits on German Squad. One is randomly assigned to Kar98k rifleman, the other to the LMG42 gunner. System removes the rifleman and then looks to see if someone else should take the bullet and, if this is the case, some other unlucky sod gets taken out instead

The system seems to work pretty well. The LMG is usually not lost until the squad is already ineffective (i.e. more than 50%-60% casualties). I have also often seen 2 man squads with LMGs, and in Fionn and Martin's game I even noticed a one man squad with the LMG.

Steve

[Renaud]

Los:

Thanks for that clarification on the NATO 7.62 civilian equivalent. I didn't read your post till after I submitted a clarification at the same time you were probably writing your post. The M1906 is going to be indistinguishible from the NATO 7.62 in stopping power even though the rounds are a teensy bit different. By way of comparison That was the info I was trying to provide.

From my experience the support weapons are among the last to go when a squad suffers casualties so it seems the german squads are modeled to expend great effort in keeping them functional despite the fire those guys must be drawing. I am pretty darn sure CM doesn't randomly pick from the squad when eliminating weapons so they must be assuming the weapons are highly likely to be recovered/recrewed.

I think Fionn's point was that the germans are in greater danger of losing a major portion of their firepower through casualties than are the Americans, who had high firepower spread across the entire squad in the form of the M1. And lets face it, losing the BAR is not that big of a deal compared to losing the MG42.

-Ren

[guachi]

I made some Excel graphs comparing the firepower of the seven squads that are available in the demo.

At a range of 40m, the SMG squad is second behind the Hvy SMG squad in FP. At 100m, the SMG squad is last.

The US squads are pretty much behind everything of the Germans except for the VG at all ranges and the SMG squad at medium-long range. With 12 men, though, the US squads have more staying power.

In game terms, the MG42 LMG and HMG are far and away the best weapons in the German squad. At really short ranges the other weapons are pretty good, but it is a completely different story at ranges over 100m. At 100m, the MG42 LMG and HMG are 4 and 10 times more powerful, respectively, than the next best weapon, If I was a German infantryman I would do everything in my power to keep my MG operating.

Jason