jim crowley Posted November 5, 1999 Share Posted November 5, 1999 Enjoying the demo hugely. Just a few odds and ends to throw into the query/comment pile. The reference to KIA's, in the final AAR of a scenario, is, I assume, some sort of statistical conclusion based on kill ratios, rather than actual tracked data. Or is KIA/WIA now being tracked during the game (which would be a nice touch, but by no means vital)? In a recent game three Shermans were shown as 'abandoned' and one 'destroyed'. As an experiment I fired at an abandoned one and subsequently 'destroyed' it. Is there a: any victory point advantage to this? b: could the crew have returned to the vehicle (or gun, for that matter)? c: the final AAr indicated 4 vehicles 'knocked-out'. Is there not a distinction between 'abandoned' and 'destroyed', in so far as the former would have a chance of being recovered? (Also it would be nice to have the vehicles named at this point- a bit more interesting and atmospheric than just plain 'vehicles') I may be reading this all wrong, but C&C seems to be limited essentially to platoon level only, with Company and higher HQ's being little more than replacements for lost platoon HQ's. Surely higher level CO's should be able to exert their influence on squads within their command radii, especially if the platoon HQ is panicked or broken? Also, there seems to be no limit as to the distance that the platoons of a company can operate from each other (and presumably, companies of a batt.) And why no C&C limitations on vehicles? Although a tank probably had greater autonomy than a squad it still had to operate within it's command structure. In a large scale tank battle, vehicles going hither and thither would have caused huge confusion, putting a greater strain on C&C I've not played the scenarios that often yet but my feeling, FWIW, is that the delay penalties for being out of C&C are not harsh enough. From a 'gamey' point of view it seems too easy to use split-squads and teams to act as scouts, gathering important intel. at the cost of a little inflexibilty. Just wondered what others, with greater playing experience, think? Is it reasonable to expect a company to clear a defended villge in 30 mins (a la Riesberg)? Urban fighting is notoriously slow and dangerous (look how long it took the fabled SS to clear the Para's out of Arnhem). I'm just a bit worried that CM may be going down the path of the majority of wargames, in making events occur 'faster than life'. Just a thought. All in all though, from what I've seen so far- brilliant! Cheers Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 5, 1999 Share Posted November 5, 1999 Good points but... AFAIK the difference between destroyed and abandoned is that the first is a total loss while the second is recoverable. Platoons are the tactical unit on the battlefield of CM's scale and so that's where the focus is. I see your points but I can easily imagine a CO telling his platoon leaders to " Platoon A go down the left, B go down the middle C go down the right"... From there on in (especially in WW2 battles) the platoon leaders were pretty much on their own unless they ran into some bad mojo and got stopped and had time to call for help.. Running into an enemy platoont he platoon leader would make orders and wouldn't ask the company CO what to do. I think that's the basis for where the delays occur (just my opinion). Scouts and teams were used to recon exactly as you just pointed out and had the exact same repercussions as you pointed out. I think your pointing out of tactical inflexibility repercussions (along with reduced main body firepower) nicely proves that CM has the whole scouting thing right... I know I was very happy with my scouting in PBEM games It took the Germans about 4 days to clear Arnhem IIRC.. There were thousands of men there.. What we';re talking about is a battle between roughly 100 men and a few tanks on each side.. Those sorts of things are over quickly. Remember, the TOTAL advance of the German forces is only something like 800 metres (about 300 of which occurs in cover).. The village is about 60 metres deep and about 200 wide.. Not exactly huge ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted November 5, 1999 Share Posted November 5, 1999 On the abandoned tank/AI thing: I noticed last night that if I did not give my Hellcats OTHER orders (or even if I left them in "HUNT") they would gleefully pump round after round of AP ammo into the "Abandoned" hulks of the German Stugs and Halftracks...even when there were nice juicy infantry targets firing any their buddies less than 100m away AND they had all of thier HE left (had not fired a singl HE round yet). I would think that pumping extra ammo into an abandoned vehicle should be about the absolute lowest of the AI's priority. ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted November 5, 1999 Share Posted November 5, 1999 RE: Company Commanders... I don't know if PLs derive any benefit for being in proximity of CO. HHWoever if you have a sqaud from 1st platoon with 2d platoon, the command line still goes back to 1st platoon regardless of how far away it is while if the CO is in the vicinity the squad will trace itself to the CO first. This is a good thing for several reasons: 1. As mentioned above the CO can repalce a pltoon HQ if it's wiped out. 2. Platoons can detach squads to the CO to form a reserve which essentially gives you an additional manuever element. Also COs are good for following behind the assault. If platoon 1 and 2 are moving/running across open ground to someplace and one or two sqauds go to ground or panic and hea dto teh rear you do not want to interrupt the momentum of the attack to stop and collect them with the PLs. But the CO following behind can rally and bring those squads back up to their platoon or do whatever with them. A very vital function. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R Cunningham Posted November 5, 1999 Share Posted November 5, 1999 Mr. Crowley, [hey didn't Ozzy write a song about you? ] Re: KIAs I'm not sure how it gets updated with FOW operating but if you select a unit and hit enter there will be a white box in the corner of the details screen that shoiws info/kills. Clicking on that square takes you to the kills page of the unit details and will show number of infantry casualties caused and vehicles knocked out. The actual KIAs at the summary screen are based on the total number of casualties inflicted which is tracked during the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 5, 1999 Share Posted November 5, 1999 Scott, In the finished game those abandoned StuGs etc could be recrewed in-game.. I know I'd want to keep firing at a Tiger till it burned if it could recrew at an inopportune time. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 5, 1999 Share Posted November 5, 1999 Hi Jim, Well, I think things have pretty much been answered already. There was a more detailed discussion about the realistic interaction between Platoon and Company HQs within the last day or so. Scott, it was SOP to whack German tanks until they brewed up or were otherwise visibly destroyed. I've heard this being called "Kocking to see if anybody is home" or something like that. I have seen pics of Panthers with about 10 good solid hits, 2 or 3 were penetrations. Because it is tough to know if you have actually KO'd the thing, it is better to be safe than sorry BTW, I didn't know that feature was in yet, so COOL A funny note... 20 King Tigers were lost in the Bulge, but only something like 5 were actually lost through enemy action. The rest were abandoned. Several were shot up by planes and/or tanks who assumed them to be crewed, and the US counted them as kills. I find this kinda funny, in a twisted way Imagine driving around in a Sherman, spotting a King Tiger, crapping in your pants, overcoming your fear, sneaking your tank for a flank shot, hitting it 3 or 4 times, yelling "WE GOT THE BASTARD!!" only to find that it was abandoned the day before because there was no gas left Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 11-05-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobVarak Posted November 6, 1999 Share Posted November 6, 1999 Coincidently I am reading IRON FIST:CLASSICAL ARMOURED WARFARE by Bryan Perrett, and I came across this passage during a passage describing the battle of Tel El Aqqaquir: (After taking serious 88 fire): "...the Staffordshire Yeomanry...had the unusual experience of seeing one of their tanks, hit and abandoned by its crew, returning home without human assistance." It's amazing what could happen during those battles! Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted November 6, 1999 Share Posted November 6, 1999 Steve, Yeah...I know it was SOP...but even after I see the crew bail...and enemy infantry are mowing down my buddies 100m away? No sweat, I can always manually re-target them. ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 6, 1999 Share Posted November 6, 1999 Scott, Put yourself in their shoes.. You're a US tanker, that German Tiger isn't moving and infantry are advancing on your position. Fortunately your friendly infantry are taking them under fire... You have two choices.. Put a few more rounds in the Tiger just to be sure or fire at the infantry and just hope that that Tiger which isn't brewed up or obviously knocked out doesn't come alive and kill you all ? I don't know what you'd do but I know what I'd ORDER you to do if I was your CO. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_in_texas Posted November 7, 1999 Share Posted November 7, 1999 BTS, Fionn, I, too, have seen my Hellcats continue to target the Tiger after it was rendered inoperative, first through immobilization then a hit to its gun. I agree with the logic that, assuming my tanks don't know the status of the Tiger, the Americans would keep "knocking at the Tiger's door". My question is: When CM displays "gun hit", does that mean the main gun is inoperative, or that is was just the part of the tank that was hit but not necessarily rendered useless. I would assume that if my tank's knew they damaged the main gun of an immobilized vehicle, they would re-target. Thanks in advance for your reply, Mike [This message has been edited by mike_in_texas (edited 11-07-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 8, 1999 Share Posted November 8, 1999 Mike, If the main gun is hit then, as far as I know, you've pulled the Tigers teeth. HOWEVER your Hellcat crew wouldn't know that. Frankly. at 500 metres they can see a tank-shaped blob but not much more and certainly wouldn't be able to see a main gun being hit and damaged all of the time (some of the time maybe but not all of the time).. I think this is one of the cases of the labels giving YOU more info than the TacAI has. Think of it this way... IF you didn't know the main gun was damaged wouldn't you keep firing at it? ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebaker Posted November 8, 1999 Share Posted November 8, 1999 I have a question about assault guns. During the Last Defence scenario I has a Stu III immobilized by a bazooka team. Well I got the team but the Stu III was left in the open just waiting for the M18 (yikes!). So I firgure I'll target something while I can. The game SEEMED to let me target whatever I wanted, but the Stu III never shot. Later I thought maybe the gun couldn't swing enough to get to the correct position. That must have been the problem because it shot up a MG in front of it. My question is how do I know the arc an immobile assault gun can shoot within? BTW that STU III killed 2 M18 when they appeared. Talk about luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 8, 1999 Share Posted November 8, 1999 When you are targetting in the VALID ARC the line is blue, anything OUTSIDE of the valid arc shows a red line. Simple... Actually for a mobile assault gun anything outside the VALID ARC would require hull re-orientation. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted November 8, 1999 Share Posted November 8, 1999 Sorry Fionn, but I guess this is another one we disagree on. In the cases you sited above I have no problem with my tanks continuing to pump AP into the hulk of the enemy tank. BUT, when I can clearly see the enemy tank's CREW bail out. I think it is pretty clear that that AFV is no longer a threat. Especailly when the range is less than 100m (as was the case I outlined above). I do, however understand that CM can not do everything all the time...I think this may be a trade-off. And, we can always re-target the tanks....as long as the AI does not switch back...does it? ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 8, 1999 Share Posted November 8, 1999 Scott, You do not have the full version. In the RELEASE version of the game crews will be able to RECREW the ABANDONED tank during the same scenario SO if you see an enemy crew ABANDON a Tiger they can get back in and 5 minutes later can be firing at you again. The TacAI is programmed to deal with the FINAL CODE so what it is doing is what should be done in the FINAL VERSION of the game. Sure, it doesn't make sense now but in the final version it will. I think Charles was right not to go messing around with AI code specifics for the beta demo version. In the FINAL VERSION where you know that Tiger crew can recrew the tank unless it is destroyed fully wouldn't you keep firing at it till it burned? ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zackary Posted November 8, 1999 Share Posted November 8, 1999 ebaker: I'm not sure you got the answer you were looking for. I think you and Fionn were talking around each other. The "target" command is not the same as the "line of sight" command. The targeting line is a bright red. The line of sight line can be light blue, dull blue, or a dull-red/black split. (light blue=clear LOS, dull blue=degraded LOS, but still LOS, dull-red/black=LOS through the length of the red, but NO LOS from the color split throughout all of the black portion of the line. When you select "target" from the orders menu, you will get a red line extending to the cursor. You can target any enemy unit that the player (you) can see, regardless of whether that unit is within your targeting unit's LOS. Thus, oddly enough, you can have a unit target something it can't trace LOS to. Take the time to trace LOS first to make sure your unit can spot the enemy unit you want to fire at, then use the targeting command. I haven't played in a couple days, but I recall you getting visual feedback with the targeting command to, but only up to the point you click on the enemy you want to target, at which point the targeting line goes red and the target is fixed. Hope that helps. ------------------ Zackary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebaker Posted November 8, 1999 Share Posted November 8, 1999 Ok Zackary that helps. I have an old save game I can test it out on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted November 8, 1999 Share Posted November 8, 1999 In the beta we are dealing with (not the demo) I have had the unpleasant experience of having a tank recrewed after I thought it was dead. I thought it was very neat. Shame on me for not gunning them down after they bailed out. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted November 8, 1999 Share Posted November 8, 1999 Fionn: "In the RELEASE version of the game crews will be able to RECREW the ABANDONED tank during the same scenario owwww! I forgot about that. You are right, burn that damn Tiger! As long as the AI does not ignore my specific orders to fire at that infantry team/squad moving in the woods 75m away...setting up for a 'schrek/'faust shot... ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 8, 1999 Share Posted November 8, 1999 I always make a special point of gunning down fleeing crews "just in case" ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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