buddy Posted September 10, 1999 Share Posted September 10, 1999 Armies have always utilized available cover to hide their assets, so to speak. In countless conflicts, from WW2 to the most recent "Kosovo Crisis", tankers have tried to hide their armor in barns and under cover of thick woods, etc. Will this be supported in the game? (I keep on remembering the scene in "The Big Red One" with Lee Marvin where they take out that tank crew who is parked in the back of some building). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddy Posted September 10, 1999 Author Share Posted September 10, 1999 A little explanation here - after reading 20 turns of the ongoing battle it just concerns me a bit that the armor can't camo itself better - especially from air attack! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 10, 1999 Share Posted September 10, 1999 LOL.. A BIG Panther sitting in the open is a sitting duck. Only a myopic 80-year old would miss it .. As for the StuG in the forest. I think I was just very unlucky. The folliage in winter is very thin (just like in real life) and so it is much easier to spot in wintertime than it would have been in summertime.. German commanders complained about "death from above" and it certainly found them during the war.. Hell it was one of the leading causes of Tiger and Panther losses. A Tiger was 4 times more likely to be destroyed by artillery or air attack as it was to be destroyed by an enemy Sherman. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted September 10, 1999 Share Posted September 10, 1999 Keep in mind, buddy, that the game plays in winter and the trees do not offer much cover if any. Not only that, but the airplane made several passes across the battlefield before it engaged the Panther. IIRC, it attacked the tank one turn after it appeard, that means almost two minutes of scouting and low level flight to look for juicy targets. I bet it would have been different during summer. I have seen planes miss often enough in my test games against Fionn, believe me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted September 10, 1999 Share Posted September 10, 1999 Gruess Dich, Moon ! What is your impression: Can/Do tanks hide from air-attacks in the woods ? Does the tac AI even try ? And ... were the tanks not painted white in winter ? If so, are they "white" for the plane pilot AI or as colourful as we see them in the current AAR ?! Regards, Thomm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 10, 1999 Share Posted September 10, 1999 I remember in one summer scenario when a plane dropped a bomb on a column and knocked out a Panther and a whole load of SPW 251/1s. A few nearby Panthers and SPWs which I'd hid in woods weren't attacked at all although almost everything I had in the open was. So, as far as I can see CM certainly seems to take into account being hidden in the trees. I was VERY surprised when my StuG got taken out as usually hiding in trees keeps them very safe. I guess its down to the vagaries of war again though. I think tanks were sometimes painted white in x-mas although a lot of the pix from the Bulge don't show this among the German tanks so it wasn't universal. I'm sure that CM "imagines" them to be camo'ed properly though. I think them not being white is simple due to the fact that: a) the human wouldn't be able to see them then and it'd take a LONG time to do more textures I'm sure. BTW check out my "Help Wanted thread" if you want camo ok? ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted September 10, 1999 Share Posted September 10, 1999 So it was a StuG that my Jabo got in that clearing? Good to hear... didn't know that Air attacks are not always as accurate as they have been in the game so far (and there is more to come in the following turns, hehe). Already the StuG which was in the woods (well, sort of, I think it was still on the road since it couldn't enter the woods) was "almost" missed - the impact was several meters off target, while the bombs hit the Panther right on. In other games (especially during summer when the trees block LOS much more), I've seen several misses and/or targets NOT being engaged by planes at all (because they were not spotted most likely). But it's difficult to give a well informed answer, since these pilots have a mind of their own. Only Charles or Steve would know the exact behaviour of the Jabo AI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest L Tankersley Posted September 10, 1999 Share Posted September 10, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What is your impression: Can/Do tanks hide from air-attacks in the woods? Does the tac AI even try? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's not clear to me that they should. It seems quite possible that Fionn's Panther didn't even know the plane was around until the bomb impacted. The tank's engine and ambient battlefield noise might well drown out the noise of the approaching plane; a buttoned up tank isn't likely to spot a plane in any event; and even if it had not been buttoned, the commander would probably be primarily concerned with ground-based threats rather than with maintaining a visual scan for enemy aircraft. After the plane has attacked or been loitering over the battlefield for a few minutes, it seems likely that more vehicles would get the word and consider moving to cover. I think this could be better handled by the player explicitly issuing orders to his units rather than having the TacAI take over - otherwise, the mere presence of an aircraft loitering over the battlefield might be enough to prevent a company of tanks from advancing on the enemy. L. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 11, 1999 Share Posted September 11, 1999 Problem for Fionn in this scenario was that there were FEW places his vehicles could move to. His vehicles were pretty much all caught out in the open. The StuG in the woods couldn't drive off road because the trees were too thick (tanks can't push down full grown trees, no matter what). So lack of cover was the #1 problem here. The TacAI will NOT move vehicles out of the way of an air attack. That is something you must do. Generally you get one turn's warning that a plane is about to come in and spoil everything. This then froces you to make some HARD choices. You can move everything you have as if someone just lit their butts on fire, or you can proceed as planned and just hope for the best. In Fionn's case he had no choice but the latter. Unfortunately, too many vehicles were sitting still which meant juicy targets. Pilots pay attention to cover and LOS. It is possible, though not likely, for a plane to not even find a good target for several turns. I'm not sure they ever give up though. Vehicles don't go driving into houses on the fly, BTW, in real life. CM does allow the defender the option of setting up vehicles in rubble, but this is something that takes a great deal of time and care to do in real life. The chances of a tank being immobilized when driving through the wreckage of a house is very good. And if there is a basement, forget about it. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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