Harold Jones Posted September 18, 1999 Share Posted September 18, 1999 Wow 6000 rounds of .30 cal on a Sherman, I would have guessed around 3000 or so. Will you be tracking .30 cal and .50 cal ammo seperately? I'm sure the grogs will not rest until you do. Just for comparison here's the ammo storage of an M1 Abrams as best I can remember it, the ready box for the coax held 6000 rounds of 7.62, and there was stowage for an additional 4000 rounds in boxes. We also carried 1000 rounds for the .50 cal. The ready ammo for an M1A1 was reduced to 3000 or so rounds because the 120 takes up a lot more room in the turret, but the same total number of rounds was carried. Some was just stowed outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bobb Posted September 18, 1999 Share Posted September 18, 1999 Steve, I take it that there is the possibility of some scrounging of ammo in the abstract since individual soldiers are not tracked but have their resources pooled in a squad or crew. I seem to recall that causalties subtract ammo. Does this happen only if the unit moves or do they keep their full load until such time or do they lose it immediately upon being hit? One of the important tasks of a squad leader was to see that ammo was redistributed where condiditons permitted. I can see where operating as well separated half squads, this would reduce effectiveness. Of course over a 40 meter spread with adequate cover and or absence of enemy fire this is not so difficult for halted units. Given a little more time this is even possible over a 60 meter spread. (yes I am restraining a little mean eyed grin. barely.) For CM abstracted squads, implementing such capabilities would be another whole burden on the system. People will vainly wish whether the object thereof is truely of much use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 18, 1999 Share Posted September 18, 1999 The whole ammo scrounging thing is so complex that it would involve a HUGE ammount of code to simulate realistically. So we have made some necessary abstractions. Squads never fully run out of ammo. What happens is that when they run out of the regular alotment they go into "Low" mode. This means they won't fire unless someone gets really close, and even then their FP will be weak. You can order them to shoot all you want, but they will only pop off one weak volley. So when a squad goes down to "Low" they are pretty much useless. Team MMG and HMG units will lose ammo when crew members get taken out and then the unit moves. Well, at least the latter is supposed to happen I personally haven't double checked it so it could still be on The List. All weapons that have cased rounds (tanks, SPA, AT guns, etc.) will actually run out of ammo. However, ammo loads are varried slightly to refelect more or less realistic battle loads. This might give one tank more AP than another who has more HE. The difference will only be a couple of rounds. BTW, whoever it was that said above that since a tank can run out of cased rounds it is possible they could run out of MG ammo. I forgot to say why this is not likely to happen. Figure it takes about 3 shots to hit something with the main gun. A typical vehicle only has about 25-30 of any one type. This means only 8-10 targets can be shot at before the ammo is wiped out. That isn't a lot of shots MGs, on the other hand, could engage hundreds of targets effectively with a typical loadout. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Talley Posted September 19, 1999 Share Posted September 19, 1999 Interesting debate. I managed to find MG ammo data on Japanese tanks this weekend. Apparantly they carried between 1400 to 1800 rounds per MG. However I couldn't find anything on German, allied or russian tanks. Can anyone recommend any sources that provide MG ammo for those nation's vehicles. Also I am curious how much ammo typically was carried by infantry heavy and medium MG's? If anyone knows of any sources, I would appreciate the info. Thanks, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Posted September 19, 1999 Share Posted September 19, 1999 Ken, I found the numbers for MG ammo of german tanks in the Book "German tanks of world war two" from an english writer, George Forty. Its is a very good read, and you found all models and variants (well, most of them) in it. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Talley Posted September 19, 1999 Share Posted September 19, 1999 Thanks Fred. I will see if I can locate that book. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikeman Posted September 19, 1999 Share Posted September 19, 1999 I still think Aaron has a point when he brings up 'public perception'. A simple explanation in the manual as to why MGs on vehicles never run out of ammo would suffice. Being an entry level grog, I would have thought it a bit odd myself if I hadn't read this thread. Why give any ammunition to those who will be looking for reasons to malign the game? BTW, How much ammo per hour did machine gunners in Korea use when fending off those 'human wave' attacks? If BTS ever decides to recreate that kind of thing at the level of CM they might want to count ammo, and gun barrels for that matter. Mikeman out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted September 19, 1999 Share Posted September 19, 1999 Fred, thanks for reminding me of the author of "German Tanks/WW2." I've quoted it many times (here and in NGs) and each time I was waiting for somebody to say, "if you don't know the author then we're not going to believe you read it." At last, I can breathe a sigh of relief. Until I start getting shellacked in PBEM CombatMission by everybody else here, that is DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 19, 1999 Share Posted September 19, 1999 Well, you've gone and done it now. MG ammo tracking is now implemented. It likely won't be a concern for most tanks because their supply is ample, but there are some vehicles that have less than a thousand rounds and they might actually run out during the course of a battle. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 19, 1999 Share Posted September 19, 1999 LOL. Moan and thou shalt receive . You're creating bad habits here Charles.. A company that manifestly listens to the gamers.. Shucks.. what will everyone think? ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Posted September 19, 1999 Share Posted September 19, 1999 Charles, once again I'm very impressed how you react to customer input. Thank you again. Fionn yes, other companys have to learn a lot from battlefront... Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dano6 Posted September 19, 1999 Author Share Posted September 19, 1999 Damn aren't these guys great. What a fantastic software company. They actually LISTEN to their customers. It is amazing. I don't know if I wanted Piss anyone off by starting this debate, as it was just a valid concern, but I am glad to see that it ended in my intended result. Thanks Charles and Steve for your "over the top" customer response. dano6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Hoerter Posted September 19, 1999 Share Posted September 19, 1999 Hehe, I agree. Nice to see your implementing suggestions that everyone seemed to agree weren't absolutley necessary. I recall a company who wouldn't respond to a broken unit database (not to mention maps). A certain real-time small level game (ahh, 3rd in the series) located randomnly on a eastern front... The funny thing is some of the more grog-friendly games like ASL are full of large abstractions. Granted, non-computer games impose greater restrictions with record keeping. I guess my point is that, except for an unusual few, people are willing to take a few hits on ultimate realism if the game is more playable. It'll be nice when the demo's out so that we can better qualify our comments. Justin Hoerter PS Just to get a fix I reinstalled CC3 on my machine. After a couple of battles it was removed again. For the record, CC2, while not perfect was a much better game... Although Atomic seemed to listen better to the requests from CC1 back then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted September 19, 1999 Share Posted September 19, 1999 Hey BTS, Do you get a lot of 'hate mail' from other software companies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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