Questions for Steve (General PBEM) #4

[Guest Big Time Software]

Oly, YUP, this battle thing has made it tough to keep up on posts. But I am trying

Fatherof4, how did you find that?!? I guess that search fucntion actually does work, eh?

Zackary, thanks! Yes, we think that things should be more interesting this way. Martin and Fionn both have commented LOTS on the fact that their battle has gone back and forth many times. Each one has thought for sure that all was lost at least twice now. Yet they both think they can win still. And this is with "fixed" reinforcements.

Dar, there were PFs and PS shells (I think on the latter) that had a fragmentation sleeve that could be placed on the charge. However, they are still just best used for supression in the open. Something big enough to take out a King Tiger should give pause to any flesh wearing unit There was also a bug where these units could use their weapons in the building, which did cause Martin a lot of problems in one case. This will be fixed.

Steve

[Doug Beman]

Here's a poser for you. Suppose I have reinforcements that are going to pop up in a particular area, say the western-center map edge. Suppose the enemy has troops close enough to see this area, but not close enough to cause the AI to hold those reinforcements.

When the reinforcements arrive, they just pop right up, right? Shouldn't the observing enemy have a chance to "see" the incoming reinforcements? After all, the troops had to walk/drive from somewhere, and it seems that the enemy might be able to see/hear the reinforcements before they actually show up on the map.

As a case in point, in the current battle, some of Martin's reinforcement infantry shows up right on top of some of Fionn's redeploying troops. I'd think that Fionn's troops should have been able to see/hear those US troops just before they got on the map.

I realize that it's probably a coding nightmare, and gets back into the whole question of "how to handle map edges," but it seems unrealistic that some troops could pop up at a map edge and the enemy troops just a few dozen meters away are totally surprised.

DjB

[Guest Big Time Software]

Doug, unfortunately this is an abstraction that we aren't going to be able to fix. The best we could do is just toss a marker down on the map on the prior turn. But even this isn't very realistic.

Generally the situation of reinforcements coming in right next to the enemy will be rare. This scenario is VERY atypical. Although I think it is cool (and so do they) I wouldn't make more like this I think. Well, maybe one or two out of 20

Steve

[Guest KwazyDog]

It worked out so well too, just at the time for moons offensive

I know this isnt what moon did, but it is possible to reject reinforcements for a turn, isnt it steve? I seem to recall it mentioned

[This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 08-30-99).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

It is on The List, but we have debated about it being a good feature. It has its good points, but there are some bad ones too. We don't want people to exercise control over their reinfrocements. But we haven't made a decision. Waiting to see what Beta testers have to say

But your point about the reserves coming in JUST at the right point is a good one to make in this debate. I played the game to about turn 5-8 twice and from there judged ROUGHLY how long it would take for the US forces to get to the town's edge using good tactics. I figured 10 turns and that is just about what it took Martin. The reinforcements came in on Turn 12, right on time to join in the main attack. So with a little bit of experience with the game (and I don't have that much as I don't have time to play ) you can guess pretty well what is going to happen, when, and sometimes even where.

If Martin HAD NOT got himself to the outskirts of the town around Turn 10-14 the reinforcements would have been attacking by themselves and would have probably caused Fionn's colapse. As it was the reinforcements simply hammered the last nail in the coffin. The crucial reinforcements came on Turn 5, which again was calculated to synch up with the movement accross the river (and did). Fionn's reinforcements were designed to come into play (i.e. after marching) just after Martin's MRL facing the woods was clobbered. I guess correctly here too

See, not that hard at all! I got 3 out of 3. The 4th set of reinforcements is do ROUGHLY Turn 17 I think. Should be just after Fionn mops up and starts to press an organized attack on the town. And then there is a Fighter Bomber that might show up any time now... Gotta love wildcards! (well, Fionn might not because I didn't give him AAA defenses ).

Steve

[Rhet]

Ok now for the Hypethetical situation that I illuded to before.

An American platoon is advancing across a field to a small city (approximatly 500 meters away). Durring the action phase, they see a German squad run into a building (which is a VP location). The VP location should now show as being held by the Gerries. The next turn the German squad runs out of the back side of the building (away from the advancing Amis) and down the street for a ways. For argument sake we will say that they are now outside the influnce of the VP to maintain its disposition as being held by them. Will the Amis still see the VP as being held by the Gerries? For the purposes of the following questions, I assume that it does not.

Shouldn't the VP show that it is being held by the Germans. I think it should because the Amis would have no indication that the Germans are not just hiding or have obtained covered positions in the building. In real life I think that they would assume that the building was still being held until proven otherwise (or leveled to the groung by their Artillary).

In this example the Germans would only recieve credit for holding the VP location for one turn after all the computer knows where they are. If this is modeled like this the the VP flag would not appear to the American player as Neutral thus he would have no indication or reason to think that they had abandoned the location. He would probably approach the building more carefully as a result?

CM may do this but from the cases you presented in the last thread I could not tell.

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Rhet

[Guest KwazyDog]

"We don't want people to exercise control over their reinfrocements." - Steve

Maybe an idea Steve is to make the chance that it was to arrive the first time reduced for the next turn after you reject it. For example, a Sherman has a 70% chance on turn 5, if you reject it 60% on turn 6 and so on. This would probably reflect the possability of reinforcements being reassigned to other areas if not accepted by the CO, and would make the player think twice about doing it Just a thought...

"But your point about the reserves coming in JUST at the right point is a good one to make in this debate. " - Steve

Ive noticed that everything had pretty much arrived as necessary. I think you did really well in predicting the outcome Hopefully for Moon, the air support and some armour will come through though, as of turn 12, those Gerry Panzers are looking rather a ominous site

[Guest Big Time Software]

Rhet, word back from The Man is that the flag sate only changes when you SEE a unit at the beginning of the turn. (I didn't know this ). So, if the guys ran into the building during the turn the flag would remain neutral. If you lost sight before the turn ends the flag remains Neutral.

If you do maintain sight on the unit at the end of the turn, the next turn it will be marked as German. Now, if you loose sight of the unit by the end of the turn the flag will once again turn Neutral. HOWEVER, this doesn't really tell the other player squat. For all the player knows the enemy unit is simply hiding from view, or had moved further into the building, or whatever. The point is that even if the unit ran out the back and the flag turned Neutral the other player won't know why.

Sheeesh! I hope that made sense

Basically you only see the flag ownership if you actually SEE a unit near enough when the turn ends. If you don't, all bets are off.

KwazyDog, we will see what the testers say. They will be making their own scenarios as well as playing the game, so they will be in a good position to know if the system is cool as is or not.

Steve

[Simon Fox]

I think it might be time for a new thread (thanks Mike!) but I'll post this here. I have a general question regarding Arty and Martin's employment of it.

Given the effect of his mortar barrage (80mm I think) it seems to me that the halftracks would be fairly vulnerable to arty in the forest. If the trees were fairly dense one would expect a few air bursts which would make mincemeat of the passengers. I take it that his 105mm hasn't got POZIT fuses, pity, that would have really "cooked" Fionn's "goose" he he. Given his preponderance of arty I would have thought he could have "worked over" the German concentrations in the forest a bit more. So my real question is how is the effect of airbursts modelled vs halftracks or open top vehicles in general and is my inclination above feasible.

A bit more on the forest: it would seem logical for the US troops to set up some sort of road block by felling trees across the roads (if they had time within the context of the scenario set up). How is this modelled and how can it be implemented/employed. For example I would have thought an engineer unit could even set up a pretty good roadblock under the right circumstances during a scenario.

[Larry Marks]

Steve, looking at the pictures that Fionn and Moon have posted we see much damage to the ground and buildings from fire. Will vehicles also show damage from hits? Thanks.

Larry

[Rhet]

Steve,

Yup, it made sense alright. I kind of thought that was how it worked with the flags reverting back to neutral. Just another example of the Man keeping us down err... rather in the dark! I guess that both ways include uncertainly, Charles's way generates more suspense though. That can't be all bad or could it?

One last one on VPs ...from what I can tell from Martin's and Fionn's game they recieve points every turn they are in possesion of of a VP location. I assume that the VPs can be "switched" to a mode where they only are worth points during a certain turn (eg. the last turn). This would allow scenario designers to create scenarios that would emulate situations like hold the bridge until relieved. Pegasus bridge comes to mind. I think the "points every turn" mode would be really useful in simulating delaying actions or advances. This feature along with the other factors CM considers to decide victory would really give the designer the flexibility to design some great scenarios.

BTW, how is the global morale of the two forces in the game? Has either one been affected greatly? It would be interesting to know what kind of a morale hit the Amis took on loosing the Jumbo or for that matter seeing how the loss of the town affects Fionns troops.

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Rhet

[Guest Big Time Software]

Simon, the main reason Martin didn't give Martin more abuse in the woods was that he was firing indirectly (i.e. lower yeild of hits per round fired) and that he ran out of ammo He still has some 105 left (12 rounds I think), but he is saving that for the massing of Fionn's forces in front of his position. Smart

Treebursts increase the lethality of the exploding round. So a poor little HT sitting under one of these is going to be hating life. A tank, on the other hand, probably would survive unless it was big stuff.

Either side can set up roadblocks. There is a special terrain type for this. However, I didn't want Martin to be able to bottle neck Fionn automatically. Plus, in my description of the battle Martin's forces basically rushed to the woods when scouts came back with info about the relief force. In other words, no time to set up an effective roadblock.

Larry, no damage graphics on the units. Way too hard to do (though it would be cool!). Terrain is constant and basically flat. Vehicles are highly variable and can be at any angle (coordinates) when hit. So it is hard to calculate how to lay the teture on the vehicle. Then the vehicle and hit have to move together in exactly the same way around the map. If the hit was on the turret, the hit graphic would have to know to rotate with the turret exactly as the turret for that particular model rotates. All this CAN be done, but it involves a crudload of programming and lots of CPU cycles. A hit on terrain just means tossing down a graphic in a predictable way once, and ta-dah, done

Rhet, actually flags only count if you have them, not how long you have them. So if you possess all flags when the game ends you get all the points. Doesn't matter if you held it for most of the game or just the last turn. The point is that you have it. If you want to simulate a "hold x until reinforcemetns arrive in 20 minutes" you simply make the scenario only 20 minutes long.

Yes, the Global Morale thing is working. Won't know how well until Beta testing, but it seems to have an affect on things. Guys are more likely to panic for example. Right now both levels of both players are OK, so there hasn't been any major problems for either. But test scenarios do show that it works. Don't know about the Jumbo, but I am SURE Martin took a big hit since the numbers are based on the value of the unit, and the Jumbo ain't cheap

Steve

[Doug Beman]

This one got asked before, but I forgot the answer, and search doesn't seem to be doing it: if a unit is captured by the enemy, and then released by friends, what weapons will it have? I *think* the answer was "just pistols" meaning those troops would be useful only for, say, guarding prisoners (like whatever enemy troops were left after the initial jailbreak!)

DjB

[Doug Beman]

Forgot to add: if a tank crew panics (say, green crew under close infantry assault) and abandons the vehicle to surrender, that means there's a perfectly usable vehicle sitting there, right?

Now, I thought it was standard practice to prevent the enemy capturing your vehicles intact (am I right on that?) Is there a point difference between capturing an enemy vehicle that has been damaged, and one that is fully operational? If so, is there a way to destroy vehicles of yours that have been abandoned?

Example: you're on the defense, being pushed pretty hard. One of your tanks, with a green crew, gets close-assaulted and the terrified greenies surrender. A little later on, you're able to make a counterattack and move slightly ahead of that captured tank. Then, the enemy pushes back and you have to retreat. Is there a way to have your retreating troops destroy that abandoned tank?

Another coding nightmare, I'm sure. And I don't know how relevant my question is, or accurate is my example.

DjB

[Henri]

A problem with conditional reinforcements is that a player who knows about it could purposely slow down his advance in order to get more reinforcements to improve his chances later. One would end up playing the system instead of the battle. A better idea might be conditional reinforcements with probabilities low enough so that it wouldn't pay to do the above.

[Doug Beman]

In turn 12, Fionn close-assaulted one of Martin's HQ units (at least that's what Fionn thought it was) There is a picture (actually the top few) of this in the TGN reports section.

How did those 2 Panzergrenadieren manage to tackle and scare off an apparently-healthy HQ unit? Were there other German units firing at those Amis? If not, then regular troops must spook awfully easily.

DjB

[Simon Fox]

Doug,

I think that those two figures represent more than two individuals. As 3 figures represents a squad I imagine that this means that what you are referring two is 2/3 of a veteran squad which should be able to see off the regular US HQ.

[Ben Galanti]

Steve,

I was wondering what your thoughts on Fionn's advance were. Though, I understand his theory of wanting to get a combat capable force to the town, it seems like he is loosing a lot of guys trying to mop up every last one of Martin's defenders... I assume he got a pretty good feel of Martin's defenses with the 'Dash o' Death', and must have seen how thin they were... Could he have pushed ahead any more quickly and left only a token force to mop up?

Along the same lines, I was wondering how much his Panther has to fear bazookas. In his position, I think I would have pulled the Panther as far south as possible, and used it's superior range to take out the last two Sherman's, instead of using it as glorified mobile artillery... With the Sherman's gone, he could have broken through pretty easily, I would think. Just curious if this would have been feasible, or would he most likely have lost as many (if not more men)? Granted, now he is also going to give Martin time to set up a good defensive position, so his job is going to be that much more difficult...

It just looks like Fionn's in a tough spot, and I was wondering what, if anything, he could have done differently.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Doug, liberated prisioners have NO weapons. They are useless for the rest of the game. But in campaigns you would get them rearmed for the next battle. In any case you take points back from the enemy AND have the no too small satisfaction of saving your own guys.

There is no way to "spike" a vehicle, enemy or friendly. I will mention this to charles and maybe he will do something quick and dirty. Since this is only for RARE situations in campaings I don't think we should spend much time (if any) on it. But it goes on The List anyhoo because it is legit.

Henri, WELL SAID MAN! I totally forgot to bring this point up. I used to play this way in CC all the time. Get into a battle and instantly hit the Truce button. I would then do everything I could to get the battle to end so I could get more reinforcements. Of course, this worked MUCH better when playing as the Germans too.

Doug, the HQ unit was wounded (I think they lost at least one man, so were down to three), were being shot at by more than just the attackers, but did in fact surrender to a 2 man squad from what I can recall. These were bad assed SS Veterans BOTH armed with MP44s (they are still alive and well the last I checked too ). So the combo of a loss, enemy fire, and the sudden apperance of two guys sporting heavy firepower, with nobody really around for backup, they gave up. Wouldn't you?

Simon, there were several depleted squads in the area. Fionn really got chewed to peices by the MMGs before he nailed them. So it was a combo of them all that cleared the area.

Steve