Mark L Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 I think the effectiveness of artillery, including light mortars, is gonna be the thing I have to "unlearn" the most in CM. So far, it seems to be quite devastating. Fortunately, TacOPs also provides this lesson, so I'm not entirely unprepared! I just started playing Last Defense as the Yanks. I read on this board about "plinking" half-tracks with mortars so I thought I 'd give it a try. First try: 800 meters, stationary target, 1 turn, 10 rounds... ded 'track. Second try (different mortar), 750m, stationary target, 5 rounds... 'nuther ded half-track. (both kills indicated top penetration) Yikes! I'm definitely gonna keep my open-top stuff out of LOS of mortars!! Am I just being terribly lucky, or have others had the same experience? In my Riesberg game, I noticed that buildings (at least wooden ones) seemed to collaspe rather readily under a 105mm concentration. In one turn, I flattened three buildings on the German left, including the two-story objective building - as well as the two groups of infantry that were occupying them. I also destroyed an AT gun in a single turn using 105. And one of my Shermans flattened the stone building in the front of town in about 1.5 turns. Buildings do NOT seem to be very safe places to hang out for too long! I'm gonna go look at some more of the old posts to see what's been said about arty so far. One that I did read was very interesting, including some nice descriptions from folks with first hand experience with mortars, and how quickly they could be set up and "zeroed in". Now I do understand that statistically artillery is by far the biggest killer on the battlefield, so I welcome games that give it a fair treatment. But so far, artillery in CM feels just a little TOO destructive - buildings crumble very readily, and I'm surprised it could be _that_ easy to drop a mortar shell in the back of a halftrack (does anyone know what the real-world CEP was for the US 60mm mortar?). That isn't really a complaint, just an observation - I have absolutely no supporting data to indicate what is realistic. But I am interested in what others' experience is (either in CM, or in the real-world). If this topic has already been thoroughly hashed out in a previous thread, no need to go into it all over again - I'll dig it up myself. From what I've read so far, I have every confidence that BTS will model artillery as accurately as they feel it should be. I'll just adjust my tactics to suit! Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 Just a side note, there have been changes the the way rounds are called down and the patterns they form. Artillery really is that destructive. However, one of the problems with our buildings is that you can't visually see partial destruction. It should take at least two near direct hits from a 105 to turn a house into rubble. So all you see is the building come down from one hit, not from whatever hits came before it. Realistically some of the house would still be standing, and that is a feature we are going to add in the future (not enough time for this one). Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 Side note... I read of a really nasty encounter where a Tiger collapsed a multi story building with HE rounds. It killed the better part of a platoon. The rest were out of commission. So, the answer to your thought is... houses aren't NEARLY as safe as one would think. Tough to bust into with just small arms, but heavy direct or indirect fire is a different story. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Deans Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 "Just a side note, there have been changes the the way rounds are called down and the patterns they form." Please elaborate............ Thanks Rob Deans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 HAHA!! I expected I might see you post next From what I recall, the major differences are that artillery accuracy gets better after the first couple of rounds and stays that way, regardless of the FO in question. In other words, if the guy gets the rounds in on target, they stay on target and don't go randomly falling all over the place. I think a few rounds might still do this, but on the whole they will be concentrated. Rounds now fall in a rectangular box pattern, instead of a circular one, in relation to your main friendly map edge. Thus simulating the realistic origin and flight path of the incomming rounds better. More details that that I don't have. I do know that a certain Rob was the spark to get these changes in though, so these things should look familiar to him Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dateimoerder Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 Does the increase in effectiveness only occur if the FO has LOS on the target? And secondly, why cant I get a Mortar to fire on a position out of LOS? Shouldnt they know where to fire If I give them a general command? Grante the accuracy of their rounds would be greatly decreased, but frequently there would be Ad Hoc FO's such as Commanders and forward Recon teams to aid in fire correction. Im just wondering why my darn 60mm Mortars always have to have strict LOS on any target. Finally... Is it possible to code in a "Preplotted Barrage" command for DEFENDING FO's... so if I had an FO I could use an Ambush type command to specify the area that was to be pre-plotted, and then when an enemy unit came within a certain radius of that the FO would immediately call in the barrage with a small wait time (30 seconds or so??).... just some thoughts.... as The Germans used this tactic quite frequently around the Gothic Line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Deans Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 "HAHA!! I expected I might see you post next" Well, heh......... Guys, I am impressed at your open minds and co-operative attitude. Thanks, Rob Deans [This message has been edited by Rob Deans (edited 11-11-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 I had my 'unlearning' about artillery happen in my very first game. Two halftracks taken out by dinky little 60mm mortars. I had revenge later when my 81mm nmortar and 105mm arty took out a few buildings and squads. Regarding buildings. I had two Shermans pump about 5 or 6 minutes (maybe more) of HE shells into the two stone Victory Locations in Riesberg before they collapsed. I don't think command wanted me to take a rubbled building, but the Marshall Plan will just rebuild it anyway. I didn't see any survivors. But, then again, I don't know for sure if there was anybody in there. Unless my opponent tells me, I'll never know. Jason ( [This message has been edited by guachi (edited 11-11-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterNZ Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 re: buildings being unsafe. Saw a comment in janes about the fact that the KLA showed their inexperience in Kosovo by hidding out in houses, (especially on the fringes of town), making them very vulnerable to arty and tank fire. It was preferable to be dug into trenches and foxholes was the implication. PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Deans Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 You wouldn't believe how much fire buildings attract. Just remember the enemy is as buggered as you are when he opens fire on you........."Fire from that direction.......must be in the house,.....RAPID FIRE!" In reality you were hidden in the yard tucked in your trenches among the shrubery. Definatly a true statement. I haven't actually seen a case of mistaken identity like this in the game. Rob Deans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 Just a few related or unrelated tidbits about using arty in CM. First there's never really as much ammo as you want. So be very judicious with your fire missions. Just because somebody sees a target, even a juicy one, does not mean you should call a fire mission on it unless hitting that target actually suupports something youa re trying to do. Second, once you start a fire mission keep very close track of it. You forget to check on it for one turn and maybe you'll find out that you just ran out of rounds when those last six or nine rounds you could have used later whne itw as time for the final assault or the final portective fire! Third, usually you don't have to continue a fire mission until all that is left is red paste and rubble. There is a certain point where the added destruction required to eliminate those last few guys can be put to better use on a new fire mission, especially since it may very well take a long time for that target to become "useful" again and by then somebody can just go up and collect them in CC. In most of the scenaios I have played during testing I learned very qickly that towards the end of the scenario "gee I wish I had one more fire mission, why did I do this or that earlier!" Now I'm very tight with my rounds and usually a target only gets a minute or two then it's on to something else. Hope that helps. Los p.s. regarding the mortars most of those questions I believe are adressed in the mortar thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 I wonder....could it be possible to award VP to players that did NOT use all of thier off-board arty? This could Represent that this freed assets that could then be used in more threatend sectors. Would not expect a lot of VP, but might be worth a thought for CM2, etc. ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cueball Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 I would think that victory points should be given only for objectives achieved and enemy destroyed. If you have arty rounds left, so much the better for later in a campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS was 71331 Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 Can't a fire order also include an amount of ammo to expend? Once I target something, it seems the shooting continues for the whole turn even though the target was destroyed by the first or second shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 Cueball: What makes you think its a camp? AFAIK in camp you will only gain VP for kills and locatoins occupied at THE END OF THE CAMP. And again, if you finish a camp. while using only 50% of the avail. IF assets shouldn't this be taken into account? These assets would be avail. to be used somewhere else... ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 71331, Right now artillery is called in by using the target command, which is no differnt than any direct fire order. You don't specify how many rounds. Once you have placed the fire order, you do get a countdown to time on target in minutes or seconds. You have to cancel fire missions manually or they will go on until ammo is expended. You can get an idea on your expenditure by looking at how far into the turn the fire mission begins (i.e. turn starts now but fire mission will arrive in 9 seconds or in 50 seconds). Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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