SGTRock Posted September 24, 1999 Author Share Posted September 24, 1999 Hey BTS, Once again hope this hasn't been mentioned already, but Can Engineers or Tech experts capture and use enemy weapons? Also: Do weapons ever jam? and can they be fixed? ------------------ Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGTRock Posted September 24, 1999 Author Share Posted September 24, 1999 Attch: And or Vehicles? ------------------ Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted September 25, 1999 Share Posted September 25, 1999 Hey guys I raided the compnay manual library today for pertinent info on combat engineering operations and I have a few manuals if any info is needed. I grabbed all the oldest ones. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 25, 1999 Share Posted September 25, 1999 Jamming: Yes.. and they can be fixed. I've only seen it happen to MGs and the like so far. Captured weapons and vehicles: Nope, you can't get in and drive them. It didn't happen very much seemingly and if it was in every US player would end up with an organic Panther or Tiger platoon . ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGTRock Posted September 25, 1999 Author Share Posted September 25, 1999 Fionn: hehehe...I see your point. I guess if it was a choice between a sherman and a tiger I think I'd like the tiger... ------------------ Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGTRock Posted September 25, 1999 Author Share Posted September 25, 1999 Oh, but Fionn, what about AT weapons and flamethrowers and other nasty stuff...? ------------------ Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhet Posted September 26, 1999 Share Posted September 26, 1999 Dunt da, dunt dunt dunt da, dunt dunt dunt da, duntduntda... (sort of a Mission impossible theme) Way to go Los! Anything in there interesting... like the use of satchel charges? ------------------ Rhet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 26, 1999 Share Posted September 26, 1999 SGTROCK: I don't think so. If a flamethrower actually misfired it'd probably just make a big boom if you know what I mean (pressures etc). As for main guns.. I don't think they jammed all that often. An occasional misfire maybe but even that was very rare. I've never seen it mentioned in any AARs I've read of real battles. Steve, Charles? ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGTRock Posted September 26, 1999 Author Share Posted September 26, 1999 Ok, on jamming. What about capturing and using them? Like some of the US. Engineers were well versed in some of the german equipment, even some of the GI's. I heard of many an american ditching his rifle for a Mauser. ------------------ Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 26, 1999 Share Posted September 26, 1999 SGT ROCK: I think you're right about that but the thing is that if it went in you'd quickly end up with entire US companies armed only with MP44s, FG42s and HMG 42s. If this went in to allow players to use German weapons (as sometimes happened on a man by man basis but wasn't all that common) it would end up being unbalancing to the game as a whole. It's one of these things which will be missed in 1% of situations but which if present would be abused in the other 99%... I think this is a case of Steve and Charles protecting us from ourselves. (I'm one of the first people who would scavenge for German weapons and outfit entire units with them ). US weapons aren't all that bad though. I don't like the M1919 MMG vs the HMG42 but overall they're pretty good. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted September 26, 1999 Share Posted September 26, 1999 Any GI that ditched his garand for a mauser would be an IDIOT! Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted September 26, 1999 Share Posted September 26, 1999 snagged the following manuals re: engineers: FM 5-100 Engineer Combat Operati0ns (1979) which is an overall guide to various comabt engineering ops. I snagged the oldest one we had since it's merely for reference. FM 90-13-1 Combined Arms Breaching Operations (1991) which covers the subset of tasks known as breaching (hasty Deliberate and assault) which basically is all the stuff I was talking about above.) From the stash in my locker I also grabbed an old rare classic FM30-103 The Aggressor order of battle. (1973) Before there was the OPFOR there were the agressors. This was a fictional enemy cooked up by the Army in the 50-60s for training. An incredibly detailed background was developed with Army info officer names etc etc and a history where they invade the US. (including the occasional liberal use of chemical and nuclear weapons on the battlefield) Makes for fun reading. They even had their own language known as Esperanto (some of you might remember it) and people actually had to learn esperanto. ANyway cool stuff. I also brought back from my locker FM 90-10-1 "An Infnatrytman's guide to Combat in built up areas" (1990) which is a great resource. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted September 26, 1999 Share Posted September 26, 1999 What did you want to know about satchels? The two standard ones today both weigh in at 20lbs. When used untamped they can breach a three foot thick concrete wall. Tamnping refers to placing something heavy of thick on eth opposite side of the charge (from where you want the hole. When you tamp something it directs more of the blast in the direction you want it and makes it more powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bobb Posted September 26, 1999 Share Posted September 26, 1999 Interestingly, Esparento was not a military invention; it predates its use by the Army. It was an idealistic effort at providing an international language that would be easy to learn. It was a concoction of Spanish, French and English as I recall. A small article used to be printed in it in the Science News letter in each issue. I could usually make sense of the article with a little study. I do not know whether the publication or the practice still continued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGTRock Posted September 26, 1999 Author Share Posted September 26, 1999 Great stuff LOS. Ditched was the wrong word, saddled would be a better one (letting my hands get infront of my brain, well you understand) No, I don't believe a GI should "ditch" his garand for a mauser, for obvious re-supply reasons. ------------------ Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted September 27, 1999 Share Posted September 27, 1999 Yes IIRC Esperanto was actually invented sometime around the turn of the century> The inventor hoped that by our planet having one common language that it would make wars less likely. AS an aside the Agressor uniform was a US style helmet with a single ridge along the crest. The 1970s edition of the Agressor order of battle is more LIC oriented witha guerilla war being fought in the country of Patria Liberata (with provinces with names like Middleland, Coastland, southland, eastland, westland, and northland.)It's brodered by Esperanta (the enemy, Armanda, and nuetralistan. Funny stuff. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JonS Posted September 28, 1999 Share Posted September 28, 1999 Hey Sgt Rock, not to be touchy but this your thread is on ENGINEERS & EXPLOSIVES not CAPTURED WEAPONS. Although I think it's equally important for you to get you point across why not open another post on CAPTURED WEAPONS? Jon ------------------ Quo Fas et Vino du Femme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted September 28, 1999 Share Posted September 28, 1999 "No to mine clearing "funnies". There is a big, long thread about this some time ago." What no Sherman Crab (this is a flail tank not a roller tank), no Churchill AVRE?, no Churchill Crocodile?, no Valentine Bridging tanks . Hey these are neat toys. What about the Kangaroo APC? "The vehicles were mostly only used during the early days of D-Day." My grandfather was in the 79th division so I guess he must have had a pretty easy time of it after the "early days of D-day"...NOT. Anyway I don't expect too much change in CM1 at this stage but if you do north africa etc for CM3 the issue of mines will need some more attention and plenty of discussion! yippee! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGTRock Posted September 28, 1999 Author Share Posted September 28, 1999 JON S: continue please! I think right now your trying to be sarcastic? , or funny? But, I'm pretty sure you have read through the posts and do understand that the only deviation of thought in this thread, is your last posting...oops now I'm trying to be the above! You see what you've done? Got me off the topic! Now stop that! and make a educational point about engineering and explosives. Oh, and by the way I mean explosives as in big bang demo packs, not brain farts... Ouch...did I say that? ------------------ Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 28, 1999 Share Posted September 28, 1999 Yes, there will be various RAM vehicles. As for the Funnies, they were mostly used for Normandy. That is what their intended use was, in fact. Sure, some of them made it to the Rhine, but probably only a handful. And on the whole scope of vehicles in the ETO, very small. I also read that the US Sherman roller tanks were pretty much abandoned as being not particularly effective (some spent more time stuck than moving from the looks of it). Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonFox Posted September 28, 1999 Share Posted September 28, 1999 "Sure, some of them made it to the Rhine, but probably only a handful." Steve, Oh boy now you're in trouble..now were was that 79th division unit history As of Dec 1944 (ie some time after D-Day) there were 128 Crab, 55 DD, 214 Kangaroos, 90 Crocodiles and 164 AVRE in the recorded strength of the 79th div operating in support of various 21st Army Group units initially in clearing of the Scheldt Estuary then operations for the Rhine Crossing and in South Beveland, Walcheren, and Middelburg. Sources: RAC reports more details of specific operations to follow....hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LT CANADA Posted September 28, 1999 Share Posted September 28, 1999 Um... Im in the army and as an infantry officer I would not tell engineers to charge an MG post to clear mines. I tell my engineers to stay close, but behind the infantry, they are not expendable. They are still very brave for they will clear mines during morter and sniper fire but no direct infantry fire......... CM is right on this one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted September 28, 1999 Share Posted September 28, 1999 (Warning toungue firmly implanted within cheek) "Um... Im in the army and as an infantry officer I would not tell engineers to charge an MG post to clear mines. I tell my engineers to stay close, but behind the infantry, they are not expendable. They are still very brave for they will clear mines during morter and sniper fire but no direct infantry fire......... CM is right on this one!" Alright young lieutenant in case you slept through your assault breaching drill classes I'll go over it in detail here, (this way you won't look foolish if your company is ever tasked with conducting a dismounted assault breach): 1. During planning unit identifies point of breach for the attack. 2. During preparation attacking force is task organized into at least a security elelemnt, supporting fire element, assault breach element. Rehearsals are conducted ad nasuem. 3. Attacking force moves into poistion and ISOLATE the breach from the rest of the enemy's defensive scheme. This is done with direct fires, indirect fires but most of all with smoke. This way supporting positions can not bring adequate fire to the breach. 4. With the breach isolated support forces pour fire on any enemy directly across from the breach, or that can still see the breach. 4a. smoke smoke smoke em if ya got em! 5. The small breach force moves forward consisting of engineers with bangalores and infantry. The engineers lay bangalores and blow a small 3 meter wide tops lane through the obstacle (mines, wire whatever). (Of course all the charges have been pre-rigged) This may take more than one BT depending on the depth of the obstacle. 5. A small force moves through and quickly secures the far side of the breach. Of course the support force keeps up the smoke, IF and DF as necessary. 6. A clearing force moves through and begins clearing the enemy defensive belt (bunkers, trenches etc) This may also include engineers with flame throwers, special demolitions charges or whatever. 7. Normally the breach engineers will continue to work on widening or creating other breaches as the fight continues ahead of them. If the fire has slackened this can be done with mine detectors or probes. Note: Most NTC or JRTC rotations include this drill for battalions to be rated on. (And Canadian battalions occasioanly go through NTC) If you really are an infantry officer, this should have helped jog your memory. Of course you can also just ask your friendly local platoon sergeant to help get your finger out, that is what they're for after all. (grin) Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 28, 1999 Share Posted September 28, 1999 Simon, that is a lot of Funnies. However, the 79th (if I am not mistaken) is an exception when it comes to Funnies. In any case we can't include everything, so exceptions are the first to go. Engineer vehicles (besides flamethrowers) are therefore not included. LtCanada/Los -> funny enough, the prewar manual for pillbox reduction (courtesy of Ft. Benning) called for FRONTAL ASSAULTS on the buggers. Well... needless to say that didn't work as well in practice as in theory By the time of the West Wall battles they had figured this out and created elaborate combined arms tactics so that pillboxes could be taken from the flanks and rear. One interesting note came from a 30th ID Engineer officer who said that they had to train from scratch as nearly everybody in his outfit was "new" since they had pretty much suffered 100% casualties of the pre-D-Day vets. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted September 28, 1999 Share Posted September 28, 1999 Note that nothing I mentioned about breaching obstacles demands frontal assaults on bunkers. In fact bunkers should always be attacked from outside their covered arc. Obstacles as a whole should be always bypassed if at all possible but if the defenders half way competent that has been foreseen in the defensive plan. But then again "shoulda woulda coulda". Sometimes you have to do nasty things. That's the business that we're in. (As I'm fond of telling young troops) Cheers... Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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